To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

My two youngest are that age, if I didn’t be the adult and monitor/act accordingly of course they’d take the mick! If they knew they could eat more, they’d ask for more - they are not yet mature enough to understand sleep hygiene/healthy eating habits/calorie intake/vitamins in a varied diet/etc - it is my job to deal with all of that. And yours.
Often, thirst manifests as hunger - make sure they drink more earlier in the day.
Make bedtime dull and don’t set negotiations as the norm!
We have:
Dinner 5.30
Bath 6 (last drink too generally)
Music and books downstairs then teeth and wee 6.30-7.00
Book in bed 7-7.15 (7 year old can be 7.30)

They do not get food after dinner time. Or extra drinks as standard. It’s bed, kiss, lights out. And I never have an issue with them mucking about because they know the routine. In the morning, they know if they wake before 7 they just read/cuddle teddies in bed quietly.

Having the children dictate is rarely a good routine to get in to.

They are having you on OP.

If I were in your shoes I would sit them both down together and tell them you have had enough. Establish a new routine together, so they feel like they have had an input, then stick to it religiously. At that age, our routine was

5- 5.30 dinner then device free play.
6.30 cup of milk and biscuit
6.45 bath
7.15 teeth, face and in to bed for story
7.30 lights out.

You are going to have to be firm though and there should be consequences for messing around. Ask them once, tell them once, then immediate consequence if behaviour continues.
Go back to star charts and rewards at the end of the week if necessary.

Why are you there saying “sleepy time” for an hour and a half though like they’re 1 years old? Stories, cuddles, tucked in, night night, close the door!

Just stop this nonsense they are playing you. Bedtime. Goodnight then ignore !

Mine are similar ages. I would eat at 6 and put the youngest to bed at 7. Then eldest at 8. Stops them encouraging each other and at least in our house it’s quicker to do them separately, plus the eldest needs less sleep. Then they get plain water in a no spill bottle in their rooms and if they need the loo they take themselves. Food would be a flat out no.

We've tried earlier tea and supper before bed. If I give it 15 minutes before bed, it will take an hour to eat. If I give it an hour before bed, they'll eat it quickly, then ask for something else at bedtime, which will then take forever to eat. (Literally every inch given my 4yo will turn into a pisstake)

We also have a bedtime sticker chart, it worked for a while when it was a novelty, but then they just stopped caring.

We used to do them separately, and it was easier. I'm currently on my own with them both and the 7yo cannot be left alone while I take the 4yo up.

You just have to say no be firmer they are not going to get better they are pushing boundaries and you haven't found your line yet so they are just going to have to find your line.

I would also move supper earlier so there's wind down time afterwards. We don't have snacks after supper (at about 6). I remind mine (4 and 5) before they leave the table that there won't be anything to eat after that. Then if they say they are hungry at bedtime I can say that I reminded them at supper and now they need to wait until breakfast.

Our routine looks like this:
Supper
5/10 minutes play
I episode of a show we only watch before bed
Bath (every second day)
Pyjamas
Teeth
Books
Bed with music to listen to

Water in a bottle by the bed and only getting up for the toilet.
We do sit with them, but we leave if there's messing around which seems to be a pretty good incentive to stop.

You need to be firm. They don’t need a drink or the toilet or a thinner blanket they are seeing how much they can get away with to avoid going to sleep. It’s also quite funny to see adults flustered when you’re a child. Don’t give them the satisfaction, really firm “no” and take them back to bed. Do this consistently until they’re bored of asking because they know what will happen. When you are bending it is turning into a bit of a game they are winning.

I say the same phase over and over because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion with them. I can't just say nothing while the 4yo jumps round the room, starts singing or randomly attacks her brother (because she knows getting him upset is another great delay tactic)

Do they need to get up early in the morning for a camp or childcare .could you leave them up later. 7:30 seems very early during the summer when it's still bright out.
Mine are 6 and 8 . They stay up till 9:30 during the summer , fall asleep straight away and sleep till 9 the next morning.

What's your bedroom set up like? I'm wondering if you could sit with the 7 year old outside the 4 year old's room and read while the 4 year old goes to sleep with less distraction? I take the lightbulb with me (leaving a nightlight) if I'm doing this.

Loads of kids have their parents in their room until they sleep... It's perfectly fine to be there.

Just because you wouldn't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Mine shared a room it could absolute chaos I had to sit in the room some nights it did sort itself out but you need to be firm and consistent it isn't about the thin blanket or when tea time is. It's a learned behaviour and routine to arse about.

Four year old seems very aware of the attention seven year old is getting. Can seven year old have a small job / activity in close proximity while you put four year old to bed?

You can say nothing.
Just put the 4 yo back in bed if they start to get out. Like no eye contact, no words.
By responding, even with "sleep time" you're interacting and rewarding the unwanted behaviour.

I was wondering something like this too. Could they sit on the landing and read a book or something so they can see you in the bedroom but the 4YO can’t see them?

W I'd go back to earlier dinner and a snack and water an hour before bed if it takes them that long to ear a snack, if they ask for another at bed time say no and mean it.

Don't put them to bed at the same time , put the younger one first them sit outside the room with the 7 year old and a book if neither of them can be left

If there's any messing about say bed and don't engage anymore

They are not hungry,thirsty, too hot. They are just taking the piss because they know you will give in

Can you give an earlier year, then go out for a walk for 30 mins? Then back for bath, supper & bed. I appreciate this may not be possible but I've found it helpful for my kids (similar ages) to help them burn off that last bit of energy.

It sounds like a nightmare for you. I hope you are ok.

*tea

You need to stop pandering to the behaviour. Toilet once. Fill drink up before bed and if they finish it it’s tough. They are just delaying going to sleep and you’re giving them the attention. Tough it out

I think you need to start by dealing with your 7 year old anxiety. It will always be difficult if he cannot be left alone. He should by now be fine to go to the loo on his own and put himself back to bed. I would tackle this first and then move on. Both should be eating earlier, then have a cut off time for a snack and then bed. You need to stick to it and they will follow it in the end.

They can’t have snacks if they’ve cleaned their teeth

"You've had a big dinner and pudding, and a big drink of milk, you're fine." There will be a rare occasion when I can tell he actually means it so will bring him a banana or some water. But very rare.

They're just stalling. "You've had food and drink, it's time to sleep now." End of story. You're giving into it and showing them that it works so of course they keep fucking you about.