ANGRY! ( and I've fucked up)

[marmoet]

My very elderly parents have recently gone into a nursing home after both having stints in hospital. Prior to that they were very dodgily living at home alone but stubborn and happy .
As my sister and I are both POA and do not get on this has caused a lot of friction but I thought we were sorted.
They have been in the nursing home for about a month ( after 2 months in hospital) and today I went by their house to check the place as it is empty and their car was gone.
I rang my sister worried it was stolen and she said that mum and dad had "lent" it to her partner. He has driven it interstate ( Australia , so hundrends of kms). WHen I spoke to my parents they thought he was "borrowing it to go to somewhere for work ( a completely different city), and basically had no idea . They are very old. My sister has a car and her partner has a car, both expensive ones btw.
I got cranky and pointed out that they have a grandson who has no car , then they started crying and then I felt bad , as I behaved badly but I'm fecked either way.
They are saying things like we always had dogs ( when I was never allowed one). They are denying the fact that we spent our life tip-toeing around my sister "be quiet , she's asleep, come and help with the grdening". It's like my life didn't exist as there is nobody left to verify it.
Sorry for such a pathetic unloading.
If the car had been at my sisters I would seriously gone over and driven it here, but he has taken it interstate and I don't know the plate number. Neither do my parents. My sister gets all of their mail delivered to her.

"my son could make them a totally fair offer."

Which by your logic they don't have capacity to aveiro. If they can't give valid consent to lending the car, they can't give valid consent to selling it. So your son would equally be committing theft by your standards

I'm sure your son can buy another second hand car.
Your parents are free to do that even you disagree and had other plans - sorry.

I get it op and I'd be pissed off too. Do your parents have capacity, obviously it may be different in Australia but I was my mums poa and me making decisions on her behalf only came in to play when she was in hospice incapacitated as she had no capacity, until that point she did. Also, same with my mother in law who is in a nursing home just now. She's got dementia, been having delusions and hallucinations but also periods of clarity and the docs etc still say she has clarity. Essentially though, they have gave him the car just borrowed it so it isn't his. Get them to convey this to your sister and say when it's to be returned.

Mainly though, if you both have poa and are executors for when the time comes I'd be thinking it may be best getting a solicitor to be the executor instead (if there is even a need for one) because the fact you aren't even communicating suggests this could cause a lot of issues and trouble later down the line when trying to deal with the estate.

I'm so confused. Has your BIL driven it away and sold it? Why is the car not coming back?

Then your argument about it needing to sit in the drive to deter squatters is totally negated!

I think pp are being disingenuous about POA though -it's to give someone authority to act for you in your best interests, not help themselves to your stuff.

You don't know it's not coming back? He's borrowed it and already has another car. He's taken it Interstate, he can bring it back, it's not on the moon.
You just say to your sister, I had had the car valued as we're going to need the money for the care fees. It's worth £6k what do you want to do do you want to buy it or is BIL going to bring it back so it can be sold?
If your son was going to pay market rate for it, he can pay market rate for something else it makes no difference, unless you were planning to do the same as your sister but she beat you to it

Not sure why you’re getting a hard time here, OP. Seems to me that your sister and BiL are taking advantage, if not seriously taking the piss. If they had needed to borrow the car on a temp basis, because one of theirs was e.g. being repaired, that’d be different.

If your folks no longer need the car, I’d have thought it should be sold, to add to the nursing home fees pot - assuming they are paying, or will have to pay for care at some point.

That's just argumentative crap. You can get a valuation of a car online or by a dealer. We didn't even get that far as I thought it was best left in the drive until the house was sold but do carry on with your garbage.

So why didn't your son?

Family dynamics are tough and we all have baggage. This situation isn't going to get any better and is it really worth fighting over a car?

Maybe he didn't want to drive his expensive car hundreds of miles?

You need to take a step back. He asked, they gave permission.

It's 2000 km away so not handy but yes I will ask

This could be an indication that there’s a lot more going on behind your back than you realise. For instance, are you sure you both still hold joint POA? Is there a new will?

In my experience there is little you can do when a scheming sister manipulates elderly vulnerable parents.

The law might be on your side, but getting justice involves spending thousands on solicitors with no guarantee of success.

Walk away from it OP, live your life in peace. She has to live with what she has done, you don’t.

But I agree with you op they took the car under false pretences and don't plan to give it back anytime soon.

This is precisely it. They did not want to put the miles on their car.
OK you might argue that the car was just sitting there, but they have taken advantage of their parents infirmity.
If they were still in their home, you would not borrow the car, put a massive amount of miles on it without a very good explanation, and not return it.
What will they ' borrow' next from the parents?
What signature will they ' need' next?
When you have power of attorney everything needs to be squeaky clean.
OP I'd let this one go, then if anything else dodgy happens apply to have their power of attorney removed.

Absolutely this

One thing to remember with POA is you are beholden to act in the best interests of the DP
Not what's best for you.
That is abuse.
Can each POA act alone or is it joint Op?

I get you OP.
As per usual some MN don’t get it and are just jumping on to be rude and make themselves feel better about their lives perhaps!
Anyway your sister sounds like a CF. I’m not surprised you’re angry. Your parents have enabled her all her life and she has sat on her pedestal quite happily with her ridiculous expectations. I have a similar issue with my older sibling (who I’m NC with as much as possible) and it really grates!!
I guess you’re going to have to give up on the car situation for your own sanity. I hope you’re able to resolve and deal with future issues but it’s not easy.

It's joint. ( I only know that as my mum gave me some paperwork and I spoke to the lawyer). Theoretically, she can't do a thing without me, but that hasn't stopped her yet.

Given that your sister has previous 'form' for being overly entitled, please ensure that the estate agent and solicitors are aware that you have joint POA and need to be consulted on any actions and financials.

Which of you is managing parents bank accounts. Because if it's sister you need to get onto the bank asap to ensure you have full visibility of everything that they are spending.
Don't have adult social services or similar to ask for advice how to go about this? They will have seen it all before. But hurry before the house is sold to them for a pittance.

But if we asked and your parents said yes, we have permission. You might not like them giving it to strangers but it is still not theft! He is their SIL. They said he could take it.

I think the bigger issue here is you and your sister hate each other’s guts and it’s therefore making a stressful situation even more stressful. Not sure what to suggest, other than the nuclear option of you giving up your POA and walking away to alleviate the angst but I can’t imagine you want to do that.

Why didn't my son? Because he was well raised by me!!! You don't steal off elderly people even if they are your grandparents. if you want to buy something of theirs you pay a reasonable price. You don't just take it! I despair.
I hope some of the people on here have nicer kids and grandkids than they themselves appear to be.

I've only read the beginning of this thread so hopefully kinder posts prevail.
You have all my sympathy @marmoet .
Parents , siblings can be v stressful and very visceral, basic emotions arise. Throw confusion and moving into a home = nightmare.
It's not so much about the car, it's your sisters actions and what it represents.

marmoet · Today 08:38
It's joint. ( I only know that as my mum gave me some paperwork and I spoke to the lawyer). Theoretically, she can't do a thing without me, but that hasn't stopped her yet.

And it won't. She may not empty the bank account, but 'birthday presents' 'gifts' for her children.
There's lots of sneaky, but just about legal ways that they can denude your parents of their goods.
I take back wait for the next thing - take legal advice on this, and get her removed from the power of attorney.

How much is the car worth?

Maybe that’s why you’re getting conflicting comments here.

You’ve described it as being used as a run-around / a car a teenager could afford. So I’m picturing it as only worth a few grand at most. I really don’t see why that matters. It’s a small drop in care home fees.

Your sister is clearly not very nice. But you know that already. It’s not worth getting worked up about an old banger. It’s certainly not worth phoning your parents and having a go at them, saying oh your grandson doesn’t have a car, guilt tripping them. At their age. It doesn’t matter if they don’t know which city your sister partner drove it to. I think you need to take a big step back from the whole thing.

This is so annoying - message her and ask when the car is coming back?!

"They are saying things like we always had dogs ( when I was never allowed one). They are denying the fact that we spent our life tip-toeing around my sister "be quiet , she's asleep, come and help with the grdening"."

These are the parents you describe as "very sweet". I don't think this is about the car, or really about your sister, but the people who prioritised her over you and continue to do so.

You can and will feel angry, but IMO you would be better advised to step away a bit and protect yourself.

It's not really about the car. Op's posts are simmering with rage over past issues and her sister's conduct and it's affect on her earlier years ..... I think.