ANGRY! ( and I've fucked up)

[marmoet]

My very elderly parents have recently gone into a nursing home after both having stints in hospital. Prior to that they were very dodgily living at home alone but stubborn and happy .
As my sister and I are both POA and do not get on this has caused a lot of friction but I thought we were sorted.
They have been in the nursing home for about a month ( after 2 months in hospital) and today I went by their house to check the place as it is empty and their car was gone.
I rang my sister worried it was stolen and she said that mum and dad had "lent" it to her partner. He has driven it interstate ( Australia , so hundrends of kms). WHen I spoke to my parents they thought he was "borrowing it to go to somewhere for work ( a completely different city), and basically had no idea . They are very old. My sister has a car and her partner has a car, both expensive ones btw.
I got cranky and pointed out that they have a grandson who has no car , then they started crying and then I felt bad , as I behaved badly but I'm fecked either way.
They are saying things like we always had dogs ( when I was never allowed one). They are denying the fact that we spent our life tip-toeing around my sister "be quiet , she's asleep, come and help with the grdening". It's like my life didn't exist as there is nobody left to verify it.
Sorry for such a pathetic unloading.
If the car had been at my sisters I would seriously gone over and driven it here, but he has taken it interstate and I don't know the plate number. Neither do my parents. My sister gets all of their mail delivered to her.

I agree with those that say legal advice. It’s an asset. She is abusing her position

School holidays are s boring, aren't they? Roll on September and year 8.

OP, if the Australian POA is anything like the British POA, neither your sister nor you nor any other. family member can just go giving away stuff without written agreement and without accounting for the value of the item given away.

I had POA for three elderly aunts in the more lax years of POA, back in the nineties and noughties. I did everything by the book but watched while others I was aware of systematically raided their parents' estates for everything they could, in order to get their inheritances early and ensure that the state ended up paying ££££s in care costs. As a result of that, things have tightened up considerably here. Those POA documents you and your sister signed are legally enforceable. You need, at the very least, to take your sister through the legal process and remind her of the penalties for those who don't stick to the rules.

Who is paying for the insurance of the car? Who's paying to tax it? Has your sister billed those items to your parents? That would be a real no-no. Ask all your questions in writing and expect an answer in writing.

That would seem like a reasonable first step.

What do you expect people on Mumsnet (UK) to do OP? Seriously. Getting angry at your DP is just not on.

Listen? Relate? Sympathise? Make practical suggestions? Share their similar experiences?

Erm, my sister didn't cry. Try reading again.

Better still, come have a chat to her, don't sniff or chew though, or tap your foot, whistle, breathe loudly, offer her coffee ; ask her a questiion she doesn't want to answer or suggest she has ever made a mistake; she glares daggers and storms off if you do that.

Anyway, it's actually worse than I thought as she got mum and dad to give it to her daughters boyfriend ( They both have the same first name - my sis DP and nieces bf hence my error) Bf and niece live interstate permanently. If visiting sister they fly. BF is using car as he had no car.
God knows if he's even on the insurance.
For the 50th time my son was thinking of BUYING it. He will obviously now buy another one. It made sense as saved everyone a lot of hassle. Was going to pay price per online valuation. Was waiting for house to be put on market as we thought the car should be in the drive.
Yes we are joint poa ( not joint and several)
For the millionth time everything has to be sold for care home fees.Doesn't matter what mum and dad want! Take it up with the government.
Car was probably worth ( im guesstimating uk value approx 4k pounds).

Ta for kind replies - I missed the deleted ones so assume someone was attacking me. Oh well.. I feel better for having just written all this down.
I have realised an easy way to get the car details now I am thinking more clearly so can get a definite valuation and have bf transfer the money to mum and dad or return the car.

As joint POA you need to tell your sister the money she sold the car for needs to be put into your parents bank account @£4k . Your DP will need all the proceeds from the sale of the car, house , possessions to fund their care .

It will be hard but going forward you my accurate records and receipts for all money spent .

I really feel for you OP.

My sibling isnt quite as bad as yours sounds, but will always have the "poor cry" begging bowl out. My dad even said that before he died, but never stopped filling it up for her.

And then we have to pick up the pieces/sort things out/ be there for our parent because she/he cant possibly be expected to - the sibling has "far too much to cope with" 🙄

Not RTFT but just your messages. I think your sister should have mentioned it to you. My parents are very elderly and have just downsized massively. Both in ill health and are just struggling so much with surviving all their ailments they don’t seem to have much capacity for other decisions. My brother and I have been in contact continually when they give us anything to check that’s ok with each other. I would never take their unused car for my husband (nor myself) even if my parents offered it without talking to my brother first. It’s a difficult and sad time for you seeing your parents in a home and it brings out lots of emotions from the past. Perhaps try to chat to your sister when things are calmer.

Op, there are some very dense people on this thread who have zero emotional intelligence or who are willfully misunderstanding. There are obviously loads of things bound up in the car saga, it's the car but it's also more than that. As someone else said, have a look at the elderly parents board.

OP I don't know why people here are being so obtuse. They didn't have permission because your elderly parents are unable to give permission hence the POA. They should have asked you of course. You obviously can't trust them to have your parents best interest at heart or to keep you informed. Just keep your eyes open. You will probably find that other valuable stuff has gone missing too

You might be very surprised at how low the level is for being considered as 'having capacity'.
As I understood it, when it was my uncle who had vascular dementia, he was considered as having capacity to make a will as long as, at the point where he said what he wanted for his estate, the solicitor was sure he did actually understand, in that instant, what he was doing. No matter that at times he was terribly confused or that, on another day or an hour later or earlier he would probably have been considered incapable. The solicitor, who was a specialist solicitor spent time with him and was sure he did have capacity.I was astonished. It can be a brief period where someone has clarity and understanding.

Just tell your sister that her hubby needs to get the car back to their house, otherwise you will be reporting it as stolen, and tell her it’s going to be sold to fund their care.

I honestly think you've drip fed a bit OP and that's why people are saying what's the problem with them using the car and it's ok.

If you'd said:-
'My elderly parents, who have dementia and are in a nursing home, were tricked in to giving permission to use their car my brother in law and sister... as joint POA I wasn't consulted'

Then maybe people would consider it them taking without consent as you are both POA.

Get the car back and sell it.

Similar but different situation. My mother has Alzheimer’s and is no longer allowed to drive. She offered her car to my son who doesn’t have a car. Wee were getting a few things sorted and the car went missing. My brother had taken it as his car needed work. He change the owner details and everything. He knew my son had been offered the car but he needed it immediately. The way I see it nothing lost as it was never ours. My brother felt he was able to take it and did so. Some things in life you just have to let go of for your own state of mind. Yes it is bloody annoying and you are angry but try to let it go, there will be worse to come with people who act like this and you need to be able to fight those battles

Can you not ask your sister if she would agree to your son having the car when her husband gets back from his trip interstate? Maybe he used your parents car to give it a run because it shouldn’t sit there months on end not being used?

I think people are being quite mean to you. This is an emotional time and your anxiety is probably related to your parents being so old and frail. The move from hospital into a home is very stressful. Finding their care gone would be jarring.

I wonder if some therapy wouldn’t help right now? To deal with the stress of the situation, but also to address your feelings about your childhood, your sister and the impact both have had and are having on you.,

@marmoet

Did your parents know that your DS wanted to buy their car?
Did your DSis know your DS wanted to buy that car?

It sounds like your DSis did ask your DPs, of course we don't know if she was deliberately vague to say which 'John' would be using the car.

If we take your word that she was being Machiavellian about it, just make it clear that you expect circa £4k to be put in the nursing home fund unless the car is returned and can be sold.

This car (and your sister) is taking up too much headspace / energy. Sounds like anything she does will trigger you. Is there a way you can cope for the next few years whilst your DPs are alive? After that you won't have to communicate with her again

OP, so sorry that there have been so many awful posts....MN is full of them unfortunately.
Of course that is upsetting.
Your sister has taken advantage of your parents completely and given a car she doesn't own to her daughters boyfriend.
Absolutely contact them requesting payment or it returned.
Contact the solicitor via email (so there is a papertrail) and tell them what has happened so they are aware and cannot deny being informed.
Check out elder abuse charities for advice.
Your relationship with your sister is clearly over, so you have zero need to protect her awful behaviour.
Protect yourself too.
Sounds like you do far too much for your parents whom don't appreciate you.

'WHen I spoke to my parents they thought he was "borrowing it to go to somewhere for work ( a completely different city), and basically had no idea.'

This is what he was given permission to do with the car, not drive it interstate (which in Australia is usually a long way!). I'd be very annoyed OP, I can't believe other posters are seemingly ok with this.

If you have poa you can probably speak to the bank and require two signatures including yours for transactions op so she doesn’t just rob her parents blind. And if you treasure anything in the house consider removing it to keep safe. I think you’ve got the moral high ground here.

Can you apply for sole POA on the grounds that your sister is abusing her position?
involve social services? You’ve literally got nothing to loose?!

Dread to think what she’s doing to their bank accounts!!!!
m all social services and report suspected abuse

Totally know where you're coming from but you got to let it go. It's the same with my sister and I. I'm completely excluded but I've let it go. As long as my dad is OK that's all I'm worried about. I'm not in the will, it's all for my sister and nephew. Forget it and move on. They'll learn the hard way and your conscience is clear. Best wishes to you