How to stop DD embarrassing me?

[HEllo114]

My DD acts up whenever we see people. How can I plan ahead and not let this become another day like previous ones. examples: park playdate with my daughters friend went lovely they had a great time and us mums got along and chatted away. At the end I have my DD enough notice (10 minutes to go etc.). The other girls when told by their mums they are leaving happily got off the equipment and went whereas my DD started crying she didn’t want to leave and punched me! One mum witnessed this and looked horrified. I felt so embarrassed. They must think I’m such a bad mother. She’s 8 btw. She has these melt downs all the time. Not ND. Spoken to school who have said she’s well behaved at school.

I had to scroll way too far to find this comment.

Sounds like pda - pathalogical demand avoidance

anxiety driven need for control , look it up

Yes we did. Dropped everything and policed them in their room. I work pt and term time as no wrap around care could cope with behaviour. One of them was at school when they did their week so it was school then home then in room. We didn't do it lightly. One seriously hurt another child in school even though they were offered space to regulate etc by 1:1.

Yes they are nd but every parent gets to know their child. We have completed huge amounts of work on teaching them to recognise triggers, coping techniques etc. They have went on workshops and so have myself and dh.

I won't have bad manners. The trolley thing I would have walked straight out of the supermarket as soon as she started.

Sharing I think is always a difficult one. If she won't share then I would tell her brother not to share.

Keep up the positive behaviour points though and don't remove them. We have family rules and consequences completely separate from rewards. Rewards have to be quite immediate though for ours to be effective. The incredible years covers this quite well

Obviously, no one can diagnose this child as ND (or NT for that matter) by reading a few posts on a message board. However, people who have experience of neurodiversity may recognise similar behaviours in the OP's description. I think that is entirely reasonable.

As far as I can see, no one has said that recognising a possible issue of SN means that the OP should then shrug her shoulders and admit defeat. Of course her child needs to learn that hitting is absolutely unacceptable. She also needs help developing strategies to cope with frustration, to learn self-control, to share possessions when appropriate. All children need to learn these things. But for a child with ASD or other forms of neurodiversity, this can require considerably more effort than it would for a NT child. You can go down the road of punishment if you want to, but if you're essentially punishing her for her disability, you will achieve nothing in the long run.

TBH I am not a fan of punishment for any child. There are much better ways to raise children IMO. And that doesn't mean accepting negative behaviour. The best behaved children I know have been brought up entirely without punishment. And some of them came from harrowing backgrounds before being adopted by their amazing parents.

My stepson is autistic. He wouldn't dream of ever punching one of his parents, or anyone for that matter. Just because I said every thread about children's behaviour turns into a neurodiversity thread, doesn't mean I don't understand ND.

Regardless of if she is ND I would deal with it the same way. If my nd child hit me or a sibling I would ban all screens for the rest of the day if it's the morning or for tomorrow too if it were the afternoon. Possibly if sent to their room for 5 mins instead if I could see it was triggered but i have a saying "it's a reason not an excuse". I would have been watching for triggers and tried to mitigate- you need to think very hard about what was happening before these behaviours. Not just what's happening but also the environment. If you are dealing with ND then be aware supermarkets are sensory hell.

Don't ban tv but allow the iPad. It's not a punishment if they can switch to something else of equal value to them.

Praise your son for good behaviour and reward that good behaviour in front of dd. Do not give in to the inevitable meltdown she has when she doesn't get the treat.

Star charts are not great if it's emotional regulation that is the problem. You need to reward/consequences in the moment. And you need to massively praise her communication of things that wind her up.

Stop spoiling her with tech and sweets. Spoil her with quality time. Quality time both with and without her siblings. I'm currently on holiday with someone who keeps buying my nd child treats and spoiling him and I've had firm words as it turns him into a right brat when he gets stuff for nothing.

Consider diet. There is a red dye that send my child loopy so I avoid all red processed food and sugar and sweets. Massive difference.

Give more warning for transitions. 10 minutes 5 2 then 1.

I recommend starting to use the word 'consequence' that way when you say right that's time to go and she kicks off you can say do I have to give you a consequence or can we work together to not get in trouble? (Always offer to help her avoid kicking off). If you say consequence then you can change the consequences depending on situation/severity of behaviour.

Consider if she has too much screen time. I know people say screens are regulating for ND kids but that's not true for all amd it's certainly not true for NT kids. If my nd kiddo has too much screens he's a brat. I've banned Roblox that game has horrible impacts on behaviour in so many kids.

Don't let her get away with bad behaviour and excuse it as she may be nd but don't dismiss nd. I'm nd and was diagnosed as an adult- my mother thought I was a brat (I wasn't actually that bad) but being punished for things I couldn't control and getting no understanding or support to help me work on those lacking skills has left a lot of damage. Obviously you haven't said you tell her she's a brat but my mother said this to me and I've never forgotten and I will never forgive her. I tell my kids their behaviour is unacceptable, Ive said you are being horrible and things like that but always follow it up with "and I know that's not who you are and you can do better". If a kid thinks you think they are naughty then that's what they will be.

And try not to be embarrassed. Your dd may be acting out but in that moment she is really struggling and she needs you focused on her not embarrassed about onlookers. That focus may be discipline but it's still a need and you need to worry about that and not what others are thinking.

My son is 7 and we similarly struggle with his behaviour with his sibling, cheeky/answering back and transitions leading to tantrums worse than his 3 year old brother. His dad thinks he’s spoilt, I think he’s probably neurodiverse (I have professional experience which opened my eyes to masking). He’s an absolute dream pupil at school and they have no concerns although did listen to
mine and are putting in some strategies to try to help him decompress at school as it all bubbles over at home. He has plenty of friends at the moment and no one else has ever thought he may have ASD but I worry if he will keep up as I think he copies rather than gets social norms and interactions. Having his younger brother was a big eye opener to the level of social understanding and communication about feelings children can have. No real tips I’m afraid as I fluctuate between empathy, frustration and embarrassment when I think my neighbours can hear him arguing with me or screaming. His dad is a loving dad but thinks taking stuff away will help him learn how to consider others we just need to be more consistent, at moment it’s led to ‘unless you do this I’ll do x’ type responses

Quite. Because as we all know, those up close and personal have a much clearer picture of how things are.... Which is why I wasn't diagnosed until very late in life.

Well, there clearly is when her behaviour is just like many ND children.

I completely agree.

I've never punished my DC and they are really well behaved. I've always noticed the worst behaved DC are those whose parents use physical punishment.

@sweetpeaorchestra No, Absolutely do not do this.

ND or not an 8yo punching their mum is completely unacceptable (I have a ND dd!)

I'd be very angry with her and there would be a clear consequence. I'd also expect a written apology explaining why hitting people is wrong.

Just by saying that you've clearly shown that you don't understand neurodiversity! Your stepson is autistic, congratulations. In that case you SHOULD understand that if you've met one autistic person then you've met ONE autistic person. You SHOULD understand that neurodiversity is a huge spectrum with a million different traits and difficulties, and everyone on that spectrum will experience each trait or difficulty to differing degrees. You SHOULD understand that no two NDs are alike. Just because your stepson never punched anyone (to your knowledge), does not mean that it's unusual for an ND child to resort to violence when they can't verbalise, or usually, even understand their feelings. I'm autistic, I was never violent. My son is autistic, he was never violent. My nephew is autistic, he was often violent. My granddaughter is autistic, she was prone to lashing out during a meltdown. That's just 4 people out of an extended family of neurodivergents, (not just autism, either), that have had wildly different experiences and reactions. So, I beg you, please attempt to understand a little more fully. Thank you.

Consequences for violence, yes. Explaining this will not be tolerated and I do actually tell my children it's illegal (explained what this is) and my five year old fully understand I don't sugar coat it as I think it's dangerous and can escalate if not nipped in the bud.
I would also have a sit down, go over what happened when they've calmed down and give them example of what they COULD have done/said. For example if they weren't happy to leave dd you could have said' please can I finish this spin on the roundabout' etc whatever it may be and then I'm ready to go

Because all autistic kids are the same so if your autistic child doesn't struggle with certain things, no other autistic child does 🙄. A very quick Google will show you it's (sadly) very common, but that children can very much be helped to learn to regulate. My son experienced huge amounts of shame around this behaviour. He was never "bad" or "misbehaving"; he was struggling massively and his mental health took a really awful hit. He told me he hated himself for it, he didn't want to be here anymore and I was watching him shutting himself off. Luckily, I found some amazing autism support groups and research which helped me understand that he was eight and struggling, and I was an adult who could learn and help him learn without punishment and creating more shame. Two years on, we're a world away from that place and no amount of other people rolling their eyes will ever stop me speaking about it, because if one other parent and child benefit, it's worth it 😊

YES YES AND YES. She is way too young for that addictive crap.

On the other hand she is way too old for toddler tantrums if she is definitely not SEN. Good for you for coming down on her bratty behavior. Be honest OP - has she been a bit spoilt? Absolutely no shame, it creeps up on so many parents but at this age it can be turned around.

I'd look into autism in girls and how it presents and see about getting her assessed. All the Autism girl mums are saying it, because we've all been there, maybe not with the hitting, but the other behaviours you mention. It'll be a long road, and you'll have to push.

If she is Autistic, it'll ramp up in the next 2 years as social pressures take over and the friendship issues start. Forewarned is forearmed and you'll all be able to handle it better. No amount of punishment and threatening will change anything. Understanding her and how she sees life will help you both manage situations before they start.

Oh go away and stop being so bloody patronising. I didn't get past your first sentence. Well done.

So because your child is violent, all autistic children are? See how your logic works?

ASD people can often mask very well, particularly girls. I have an ASD son you will shortly qualify as a doctor so he can absolutely mask. He gets high marks for patient interaction and people find him very charming. It's not that ASD people don't have feelings like compassion - as my husband tells me the difficulty is that they have problems working out what other people are feeling.

My son was "very challenging" when younger. I did find it was really important to praise him for things - once at my wit's end I said he was very good at finding the shortest supermarket queue. The psychologist we saw said I should find 3 nice things to say to him every day. I suppose you should adopt the same thing with your son aa well as your daughter so he doesn't feel left out. I always tried to base my comments on things they'd done rather than how clever they were or how good they looked or whatever.

She is too old for that sort of behaviour. Wanting to push the trolley is a 3 year old thing. Shouting at you and punching you when frustrated are also the kind of behaviours you would expect from a much younger child.

The behaviour sounds like extreme immaturity. Or possibly some form of neurodiversity. Don't rule this out. Either way, something is amiss.

You need to stop focusing on the response of third parties here. Your child's emotional disregulation is a serious problem, and you need to get over yourself and tackle it.

If I were you, my first port of call would be an assessment for neurodiversity. But I would also look at dynamics in the wider family and in DD's life -
Does your husband/ partner respect you and show you love and affection in the home? Is DD a "daddy's girl"?
Is DD expected to do chores around the house and answer to you for her performance?
Does DD have interests outside of home and school that she participates in - a sport or Guides or any other team activity?
Why is she bringing snacks to share in school?

What is going on in school?
Does she have friends?

I would talk to the school about the (unusual) issues you are dealing with and ask if there are resources the school could point you to.

Haven't read all the posts.
I wouldn't focus on the past. Looking forward, if you're having another playdate, before you leave in the morning, sit down and set out expectations of behaviour. Explain that you will give time warnings, what you expect to happen and what the consequences will be if she doesn't follow them politely. Ask her if she can explain it all back to you.
The same for shopping trips. Expected behaviour and consequences for falling short. Lay it all out before you go. Then if your daughter does have a tantrum or play up, you can calmly explain that you have already talked about what is acceptable and if they continue to behave this way they will lose XYZ.

I agree with those saying you should have left the supermarket as soon as she started taking over the trolley.

You should have walked away from the park too.

Do not plead or wheedle, or try to mitigate situations she causes (for instance, steering the trolley away from obstacles).

Take strong action. Make it clear you are willing to shut down situations and that you will not engage with her at all when she steps out of line. She needs to be shown that she is not in charge.

She’s walking all over you FFS.

“She knows she can get away with it.”
“Family say she is really spoilt.”
“She recently got an iPad, shall I take it away?”

Is this post serious?!

My dd was 15 before I realised what was going on.
Excellent student, lots of friends, great athlete, happy lovely well loved girl.
Autistic.
She did a lot of pacing listening to music since Covid and liked her down time and found she had a low social battery....as in would be tired after socialising.
I'm the same so didn't think it unusual.
But when I started speaking to her after reading up on ASD in girls, she said she sometimes mildly suffered with difficulties with sarcasm and social cues.
She has a great group of friends and is sought out by them and treated well by them.

OP, hurting her sibling is a total no no.
Remove her iPad and let her know why.

I would be doing some reading yourself you might be very surprised, I was.
It will give you a starting point to talk to her about how she feels.
Then you can start researching strategies to help her.

But no iPad when she lays a hand on her brother.
Have zero tolerance for this.