Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I’m not anti trans. I just don’t believe women’s spaces should be used by trans women. There needs to be a neutral third space.

This is anti trans"

It's not anti trans - this is the bullying, hectoring language being used to silence liberal woman who are sympathetic about gender identity but who have concerns regarding women's rights being eroded.

I have a Trans teenage relative and we as a family are supportive while also believing medical changes should not be considered until they are adults.

This is due to our concernscabout social contagion which is rife among young teen girls especially autistic gay DFs which my relative is.

I think for the most part, most people are good people. I also think we should believe people when they tell us who they are.

I think that the fear mongering about trans woman is scarily similar to that of old homophobic propaganda.
I cannot imagine how hard it must feel sometimes just to want to live your life, do your job, etc, with the amount of fear and hate being directed at you and people like you.
I don’t believe anyone should feel unsafe, and no ones safety should be compromised. I believe that the issue of spaces, third spaces, safe spaces, separate spaces etc is too simplistic a way to approach what is a very complex issue. Our thinking and society is still very binary - women/men, us/them etc - but there isn’t going to be a binary black and white solution to a non binary problem.

It is a learning curve for society and decision makers and there are lots of grey areas, such as sport, prison, health provision, each of which should have some serious consideration by experts to find appropriate solutions that keep everybody safe and healthy with minimal risks.

I don’t think everyone yelling about toilets are really helping because it’s putting too much pressure on politicians and other powerful people to make snap comments that are not fully thought out and end up fuelling “debate”. I understand people are scared and worried but the validity of people’s lives should not be reduced to uneducated debate.

This isn’t how safeguarding works. We have to keep spaces separate in case someone is acting in bad faith. That is not being anti-trans, it’s being good at safeguarding.

How do women benefit when single sex facilities are made mixed sex?
What about the women who can no longer participate in society?

Although I didn’t actually mention safeguarding by name, I suppose when it comes to safeguarding what I’m thinking is that what is currently good safeguarding for many doesn’t actually work for all if everyone who needs it isn’t or can’t be safeguarded. Women need to be safe. Trans women also need to be safe. As do all other vulnerable members of our society. But our attitudes to safe spaces is clearly too simplistic now and becoming outdated. Work is needed to improve and adapt systems so that everyone is considered fairly and without risk. It’s not as simple as letting people in, shutting people out.

Go away. This thread is not for you. Plus it's not true.

It is true.

Swimming World Cup category for transgender athletes cancelled after no entries received

And yet again a trans positive space, which is rare as hens teeth, gets invaded by the scaremongering.
Trans women are NOT out to get you.

You made a claim, I showed evidence your claim is untrue.

Removing safeguarding for women because you believe 'basing it on sex is outdated' is not how you do safeguarding.
Facilities that are offered on the basis of sex are a need, not a luxury. Women's needs have not changed. The risks have not been removed.

I am not anti anyone based on how they choose to dress, call themselves etc.
I believe Trans people should have the same rights as everyone else
Would I treat someone badly because they are Trans? No I would not
Would I stand and watch a Trans person being abused for being Trans? No I would not
Do I think Transwomen are any more dangerous than other men? No I do not
Do I believe people can change sex? No I do not
Do I think Transwomen belong in women only spaces? No I do not

Would I be seen as Anti Trans I wonder?

yes you would. Your comments pretty much echo 99% of the previous comments in the thread. This seems to be the general consensus of people who describe themselves as trans allies including myself

there clearly a difference of opinion between those who believe TWAW without any exception and those who support up to certain red lines which they do not accept.

a lot of the argument revolves around who is classed as a trans person and where the exact point of the red line should be.

seems very hard to square the circle

I have about nothing against any man that wants to wear women's clothing. They can crack on! I've got two subs that love wearing women's votes and the youngest son is very "Klaus" from umbrella academy. But they are men. Not women, no matter how much they want to be. They don't get to opt into women hood as that suggests that women's oppression and abuse could just be opted out of. And that's simply not true. We are oppressed BECAUSE of our sex, because of our reproductive status and our biology. And clothing and hair and Mauro doesn't make a woman.

In trans women are really women, why didn't they use them as handmaids in Gilead?

All that said, I would absolutely intervene if I saw a trans woman being bullied or abused. Everybody deserves to live their lives safely and without abuse. That's exactly why women have separate toilets etc.

I cannot imagine how hard it must feel sometimes just to want to live your life, do your job, etc, with the amount of fear and hate being directed at you and people like you

I can. I was bullied when I was young and I spent a lot of time either trying to die or wishing I was dead. It had a pretty big impact on me.

But never once did it occur to me to claim shelter belonging to another group, to try invade their spaces to keep me more safe. Because the world is about more than just me and my needs.

I don’t believe transwomen are any more vulnerable than other nonconformist boys and men. Than gay, effeminate, unsporty, disabled, neurodiverse or otherwise Not Stereotypical blokes.
The safest thing a young black man in the USA can do is to transition, as violence against black transwomen is lower than that against young black men. Violent crime stats bear that out year after year.

But that’s not the narrative we’re sold. There’s even an international day of trans remembrance when the only population substantially at risk is those in prostitution in Central and South America. Nevermind all the female victims of prostitution… or the female victims at all.

Men’s aggression towards those that they ‘other’ is a huge problem for society. I hope it is addressed for the safety of everyone, including transwomen.

It is not a problem to be solved by making women budge up and share what is ours.

TW are not a homogenous group. I totally agree that not all TW are out to get women.

However Barbie Khardashian, Isla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski are all transwomen according to the TRA approved definition. It's more than fair to say they are out to get women.

I'm not sure what you expect women to do about this - ignore it and serve up the women affected as collateral damage? Is that it?

I guess the problem is that ‘people are whatever they say they are’ is the antithesis of safeguarding.

Quite

Which “trans positive space” would that be, a debating Theresa’s on AIBU?

Transwomen aren’t out to get women in the same way all men aren’t out to get women… until someone is. Hence safeguarding.

Transwomen put all women at risk when they want access to single sex spaces. Because then those spaces are no longer single sex, and that only goes badly for women.

Male spaces, female spaces, mixed spaces for those not happy using those aligned with their sex. Or mixed spaces and female only spaces (like suggestions for sport).

I really don’t think it’s like old homophobia.

Homophobia didn’t want lesbians using changing rooms, even though lesbians are female. They would be left with nowhere to change AND they were no more likely to be a predator than any other woman- and if they were, women would stand a reasonable chance of defending themselves.

We separate by sex, not sexuality. We don’t send gay women to change with the men, or gay boys to change with the women.

Transwomen are far stronger than women and keep a male offending profile. Trans or not, they offend the way men do so need to be kept out the same way men are. We don’t exclude men because they are predatory, we exclude them because they might be.

Until we as a society decide it’s a free for all, no need to separate the sexes, then we separate by sex, no exceptions.

I think there's a few awful weirdos who ruin it for the good ones. Same as with everything and everyone else in life really.

Ruin what though?

I think everyone agrees that people should be free to express themselves as they like. But as men can't become women, I'm not sure why anyone thinks we should be pretending they can.

I'm still not sure what rights trans people don't have.

Other than the one to coerce my thinking into believing something that just isn't true.

I think that the fear mongering about trans woman is scarily similar to that of old homophobic propaganda.

I've largely tried to avoid the trans debate but I have to agree with this. I'm old enough to remember what the UK was like before political correctness became a thing in the 80s and many of the anti-trans memes I've seen recently remind me very strongly of the anti-gay cartoons and slurs I saw back then.

FWIW I first knowingly met trans people back in the 90s and I've encountered a number more over the years. Plus, of course, there may well have been other trans people I met in that time that I never spotted as trans. From what I could tell they were all just people trying to live their lives in a way that made sense to them.

I'll happily admit that as I'm a man then my perception of the issues and risks is likely to be different to that of a woman. And I think there are valid concerns from both sides that will need sympathetic work and compassion to reach a workable compromise.

But the more I see the anti-trans side banging on about "bearded blokes in miniskirts" and the like, or scouring police reports for any crime that they can try to pin on someone they think might be trans, the less likely I am to listen because it just reminds me too much of the 80s bigots going on about "limp-wristed bum-boys", "butch men-hating lesbos" and "backs to the wall, lads, that poof's coming through".

This thread, on a forum, is for everyone with an opinion, not just the people who agree with you.