Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I've noticed that when the women here start asserting their own boundaries in no uncertain terms, that's when we see the most plopping of platitudes and flouncing. I think some other women feel judged.

I think it's disrespectful to dress up as a woman and declare all women's things are now yours. It's colonisation

This is the intellectual level of discussion then. Oh dear. How silly.

Some of the transphobia here is appalling and I'm just going to report rather than engage further. So much for the trans positive thread.

Is it just me who doesn't see the point of this thread? Why do you need to know whether people are pro or anti-trans? What does this knowledge do for you? Are you one of those people who can't hold an opinion without invoking a host of like-mindeds? Would it make one iota of difference if everyone on mumsnet agreed with you? Or disagreed?

How do you know no one had a problem with it? Were the female membership asked? Was consent obtained unanimously from every one of them before assuming this was okay and would not be a problem?

I'm guessing the answer to this question is a resounding 'no'. Women's consent appears a murky enough concept anyway, both socially and legally, as evidenced by the low convictions for VAWG (including sexual violence). Nor has it ever mattered one jot to this ideology to solicit the opinions of women but merely to chant slogans of #NoDebate at them, to tell them forcefully that they must capitulate, and to hound many a woman out of her profession for her refusal.

My own gym didn't seek the opinions or approval of its female membership either. I don't doubt they also assumed that 'nobody' had a problem with it - until, that is, their specific branch ended up in the national media when a furious customer and her child encountered a trans woman in the female-only changing section, tackle on show for all to see.

You do not get to consent on behalf of others.

I stand by what I said before, which is that it's weird to be so obsessed with strangers' genitals (if you're not a sex worker or in a medical profession).

Why do people actually go around obsessing about strangers' genitals this much?
Why are people more scared of straight trans people than lesbians in toilets?
Why are people so obsessed with thinking they're going to get assaulted in toilets anyway?
Isn't this all a distraction from how men are actually the problem?

It's very confusing.

But they aren't women. They are men. I'm sorry if they have trouble accepting that fact, I suggest that they need therapy for that.

What they 'identify' as is up to them, but I am not going to be compelled to say they're a woman when they're not.

Any more than I would refer to them as Napoleon, Jesus, a different race, species, disabled - if they aren't. No matter what their wishes.

Material reality and the meaning of words matter. That's not rudeness. It is respect for facts and meaning.

I'm not. Was hoping for a discussion about why you take issue with this:

When there's a female-only space and a male decides to disregard this boundary and impose himself anyway, how is this not a violation?

This is a view I genuinely hold, that it is a violation and disregard of boundaries. I'm not being insincere or disingenuous when I say this. Thanks.

Florrie, if a 45 year old white man wanted to identify and be referred to as a 15 year old black girl, would you object to that? There are people out there who identify as transage or transracial. Should self ID be supported there too? And if not, why is biological sex ok but biological age or race not?

I believe transpeople should have the right to present and live as they want without fear of threat or violence, but within a third category when it comes to public spaces or sports etc. I know that’s not what the majority of TRAs want, but it’s the best compromise I can come up with.

Be kind was the worst ever hashtag to invade the Internet.

I will not be kind if it means lying to myself, allowing men into spaces for women, especially vulnerable ones, or claiming prizes jobs and awards not meant for them

They can put on a frock as much as they like, and that's fine, but I'm not moving over for them.

The male.entitlement shows in the behaviour as much as in the bodies, movements etc. We see it.

@florrieatthevicarage you don't need a "trans positive thread" to have these discussions about why you think other women are wrong, those women will happily engage with you with evidence and reasoned argument, but obviously if people make negative threads about feminist women on the site those women are entitled to have their say too.

I work in an Autism unit attached to a secondary school. We have had 3 girls this year identify as male.

To me this is a big worry, what are we doing to girls that makes them hate being female so much. Also why are we forcing the other students to lie, we all know they are girls, they are not boys. They all still use female changing for pe and female loos as its safer!

I don't think transwomen should be in any female spaces. I am mostly afraid of males. My safety is more important to me than anything else.

Not least the arrival of the mansplainers, who turn up right on cue to scold women for daring to think and speak outside their terms of approval.

I wonder how many women insinuate themselves onto sites overwhelmingly aimed at a male demographic, to inform men of how they are expected to behave and tell them what they can and can't talk about?

Quite, @SerafinasGoose

Why would I be frightened of a lesbian? She's not going to be able to overpower me, is she?

Because rape is a male-only crime. Toilets are ‘behind closed doors’ and an opportunist can get away with criminal behaviour away from prying eyes.

You're confused as to why women should fear male-bodied people as opposed to female-bodied people in facilities designated for precisely those female-bodied people?

Go on. I'll give you a wild guess.

It's not something that we are doing to make them hate being female, they don't feel that they are female

Trans ally here 👋

Im really surprised at the hate on here. Sure I can understand the concerns people have but shouting they're born men so they need to be treated as men is at best insensitive. We're talking about people born male but who identify as female not through choice! People take estrogen hormone therapy in order to become feminine and live 24/7 as female are to all intents and purposes living as women and should be treat as so.

Are men out to get us?

We like to think not, but enough of them are for women to have some protection in the form of single sex spaces.

It’s the same with the group of males known as trans women. Most are lovely I’m sure. But there is enough evidence in terms of offending to show a clear risk to women.

In asking us to ignore this you ask us to put ourselves at risk. Let one male in and you give permission for all males.

What do you actually mean by 'identify as' though?
You can only be what you actually are - you are not a female if you have male sexual organs and you are not a male if you have female sexual organs. If you are (completely) post-surgery then you are a trans-female or trans-male, but the trans part still needs to be there. In rare cases of intersex people (e.g. where organs are not 100% defined at birth), then a person may be forced to act as male or female, due to parents feeling they have to assign male or female early on, instead of them being 'intersex' (until puberty starts to kick in).

Wait, wait... what's the problem? Don't you think we need to be respectful to each other? Do you think I should respect a transwoman and use their pronouns and welcome them into women's spaces? Yes?

Why can't I ask that people respect my beliefs too?

My belief that I know what a woman is, given I am one, is just as deserving of respect.

How does that play out in practice?

It's you bringing 'genitals' into the conversation though.

Some women don't want men in spaces where they are vulnerable or exposed. Are you saying they aren't allowed those boundaries?

Why can't people grasp the fact that males, as a sex class, are statistically a risk of causing harm more harm to females, regardless of how they identify.

No one gives a fuck about transmen being in women's spaces as they are female. People give a fuck about transwomen as they are men, and shouldn't be there. Be it a toilet, changing room, prison, insert a place where a male shouldn't be that's for females here. Being gay doesn't pose the same risk, unless that gay person is male.

Why are some people actually quite thick they can't get this. Why can't people grasp the most basic concept of safeguarding, and why spaces are sex segregated in the first place.
Why don't people realise trans people have the same rights as everyone else.
Why don't people understand that we all can't get what we want, just because we want it.