Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

Ha, I thought something along those lines when I saw the original thread and some of the responses.
“I’m so shocked to see that no everyone shares my (religious) beliefs!” - really?

A trans woman who is biologically male, of course.

Would a person with male genitalia, but who identified as a woman, be allowed to enter a Muslim women only space or event (swimming sessions for example)? I'm guessing the organisers or establishment concerned would turn them away, but where does the law of the land stand on this?

Exactly as a bloke you have no idea what it is like to be woman. It is not just make up and dresses

we are inherently wary. Every women is brought up with personal safety on their mind. We are told not to wear revealing clothing (that means we are asking for it), don’t walk alone at night, don’t put yourself in risky situations. How many of us were given ‘rape’ alarms when younger. How many of us carry keys in our hand if we find ourselves alone just in case we need to have something hard to fight back. How many of us have been touched inappropriately on public transport? Every single women makes an assessment of every single man we meet. We might not realise we are doing it but I promise we do. We avoid men who give off ‘vibes’ even if it turns out that person is harmless. We are taught to get out of circumstances that make us uncomfortable. men have absolutely no idea every single one of us does this on a daily basis.

so if I am in a changing room and a biological man starts to get changed- yes I inherently seem them as a threat. They might be harmless and I accept they probably are just like the man following me down a dark path on the way home probably is but you bet my inherent tendency of self preservation will kick in and I will be out of there just as I would run home from that innocent man walking home from work.

telling women they need to stay in an uncomfortable situation in order to ‘be kind’ overrides everything we have been taught from a young age. Changing rooms and toilets (areas where women are vulnerable due to state of undress and lack of exit points) should be spaces where women can enter without fear

@HowardTJMoon

I have no doubt that your trans friends are lovely. I'm sure that your male friends are, too.

But does your male friends being lovely mean there should be no safeguarding for women? That no violent men exist?
I'm sure you would agree, of course not.

So why should it be any different for transwomen? That the ones you know being lovely means that all transwomen (who, being biologically male, retain male offending patterns) are safe?

I'm pro women. Spaces (such toilets and changing rooms), and sports should be single sex for privacy, dignity, safety and fairness.

I'm against children being damaged mentally and physically by gender ideology and those who push it.

Other than that, other people's delusions aren't my problem.

Absolutely. All dogs are capable of biting. Anyone with a penis is capable of rape. We have no idea whether they will or not until they do. Too late then. I don't care how anyone identfies. If they are a biological male then I don't want them in my space. Oh and just because youre wearing a dress or pink leggings I won't believe you're not the bloke I can clearly see that you are.

I can't read your mind. I am repeating what you said. That you remember anti gay rhetoric from the eighties. And jokes from your peers about other boys being gay but didn't say anything. And that women talking about the clash between trans rights and women's rights reminds you of that. Which is why you "curl your lip" at the language.

If I got that wrong, please correct me. If I got it right, why do you think you didn't correct your (presumably male) friends then, but are correcting us now? Are you putting the same amount of energy into dealing with the (Most all male) persons who are actually still physically violent towards gay men, effeminate men etc as you are towards women using language like "men in miniskirt" to describe men in miniskirts?

And if, for example, a woman wants to get changed in a changing room without a man present, or discuss being raped in a female only space and a man is present. Then the woman has had her dignity harmed. Even if the man isn't a rapist, or "dangerous", even if they are genuinely lovely. That isn't hate or fear mongering.

I'm a woman and I think of trans women as women as well, just not born that way. So I would not call them men. I think that's nasty and insulting. But obviously there are difficult situations such as sport where trans women usually have more strength so working out a system for that is important. And re changing rooms and toilet spaces: I don't like sharing them with anyone, so would far rather individual spaces where anyone can use them (also helpful when taking slightly older children to the toilet - I hated having to let my 7+ year olds use the mens spaces on their own). And of course there are a minority of men who will pretend they are trans to get closer to women. Let's get rid of ALL shared intimate spaces.

I have some sympathy with this, and can see why it appeals.

In safeguarding there's a concept called gatekeeping. If you make very visible gates- procedures that demonstrate safeguarding is taken seriously- then predators go somewhere else. If you have no visible safeguarding mechanisms then predators are drawn to you as a soft target. So we do safeguarding 'big and visible'.

As soon as you say it's probably a really small problem, and we don't actually need to guard against this, then predatory people are attracted. Not the people you removed the gates for- they were perfectly nice old fashioned transsexuals who just wanted to pee in peace.

But when there are no gates, how do we keep predators away?

In safeguarding, everyone is treated equally. We don't safeguard against everyone except priests who are celibate and godly and therefore no threat. We don't safeguard against everyone except scout leaders, because they've been doing it for decades and everyone knows they are a good egg.
We don't assume teachers are ok.

Everyone is treated equally. No one is exempt from safeguarding. If women have rooms set aside for them, only women should be using them. No one is exempt.

Not anti anyone. They can crack on with the clothes. makeup, surgery , hormones and whatever for all I care. The surgery and hormones are very dangerous to long therm health but that is up to them. Not my business!
But biological women need to maintain safety as a more vulnerable genetic sex.
They need separate spaces, toilets, sports.
Basically leave biological women alone and out of this.
Perhaps the trans community should think up a different name as they are not women they are something different!
Historically biological women have been very vulnerable and abused for centuries. Mostly controlled by the vulnerability of being female. Please don't forget or ignore this fact.

I'm a woman and I think of trans women as women as well, just not born that way. So I would not call them men. I think that's nasty and insulting.

It's not nasty or insulting, it's a fact. An observable, verifiable, scientific fact.

Humans can't change sex any more than any other mammal.

It's a double standard, you want to treat one subset of males different to the rest just because they claim not to be men.

@HowardTJMoon

A ‘potential’ safeguarding risk is an actual, real safeguarding risk, which would immediately put any school or institution in the ‘inadequate’ Ofsted category. This is what wider society needs to understand about safeguarding: it requires that nothing be left to chance.

Well I can't be compelled to refer to men as women. Men are still men irrespective of what they call themselves. Therefore they should not be in women's spaces. Referring to men as trans women still refers to them as women. They are not and will never be female so I will call them men. This is biological fact. The idea that it is possible to change sex in reality is a delusion and women cannot be compelled to pretend that this can happen or be forced to go along with or validate the delusion. Some men pose a risk to women's safety and will use this dangerous ideology to access female spaces in order to prey on vulnerable women and girls. Even more horrifying is the example of male rapists who call themselves women to try and access women's prisons and prey on vulnerable women there. If a male police officer referred to himself as a woman he would then be able to intimately search female suspects. These are just a few examples of this dangerous misogynist ideology which is posing a threat to women's rights and safety.

A trans woman who is biologically male, of course.

Well of course, obviously, but that's not what the poster said. They insisted on using the term 'man' when they're actually a trans woman. Not to mention the unnecessary inflammatory language used in their post.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-penis-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386

Woman or man?

I didn't use the word "man", I referred to them as "males". If you read "male" and thought "man", well ... some people might call you transphobic for that!

Have you asked all the women who use those changing rooms if they are comfortable changing in front of a penised male?

They probably won't say anything to the contrary in case the be kind hard of thinking brigade call them hateful transphobes.

You cannot tell someone to 'go away' just because they aren't following the same narrative as you.
We must protect women's spaces.

Religion, sex, and gender reassignment are all protected characteristics, and the Act provides mechanisms for balancing competing rights, such as: aim for minimal relative disadvantage rather than identical treatment; allow some discrimination if it meets a legitimate and proportionate aim (a good example is the exception that permits us to have any sex segregation in the first place).

In practice, unless someone sues, institutions just do what they think will cost least/cause least trouble/burnish their inclusive credentials. Forcing Muslim women to swim with men would probably cause quite a lot of trouble (or, transwoman will be in the pool all alone).

What is a 'trans positive space'?

Is this in the context of toilets or in general? The whole trans world is alien to most people as its so grey. When does a cross dresser become a trans? To me, a trans person MTF should be able to use a "ladies" toilet but a cross dresser should not.

No the correct term is man. Trans "women" are men. The poster referred to him using his correct sex

It's a space for people who have fallen all over themselves to be so open-minded that their brains have fallen out.