Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I, for one, would welcome Barbie Kardashian to my Air BnB, if I had such a thing.

That was a joke, btw.

If I had an Air BNB I wouldn't give a toss about the gender identity of anyone who booked it. Who on earth would, and on what grounds?

It's downright weird how wrong some posters get the positions of feminists on this subject. Almost seems like wilful misunderstanding.

What I think I find even more infuriating than the aggressive TWAW stance is the ‘I’m stuck on this issue because it’s all become a bit polarised’ brigade. FFS engage your brain!

There is no grey area, no impenetrable moral conundrum. It’s perfectly fucking simple. Keep all men out of female spaces, however they identify.

Well, that is shocking. Air BnB allows somewhere to falsely advertise itself as 'women only'?

Actually I think if you are a lone Air bnb owner you should be able to exclude anyone on any grounds - are you not allowed to refuse someone even if others have given them bad reviews??

Just going off at a bit of a tangent about Airbnb here (not trans related).

Airbnb definitely prioritise men over women's safety. An acquaintance of mine booked into a property but the male host was creepy AF. Acquaintance did not feel safe staying there so didn't stay even one night. But because she didn't stay one night she couldn't write a review to warn other women. Airbnb was not interested and the property is still listed.

Hoping that might help someone and it's something to bear in mind.

Yes. But now we know. So if I am needing a 'woman only' accomodation when I am traveling alone, I will not be using AirBnB.

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/help/article/1807

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/help/article/2867

Gender Identity
Airbnb does not assign a gender identity to our users. We consider the gender of individuals to be what they identify and/or designate on their user profiles, and we expect our Airbnb community to do the same. This includes respecting the pronouns (he/him, she/her, they/them, etc.) any users within the community identify themselves with.

• Airbnb hosts may not:
• Decline a booking from a guest based on gender identity unless the host shares living spaces (for example, bathroom, kitchen, or common areas) with the guest.
• Impose any different terms or conditions based on gender unless the host shares living spaces with the guest.
• Post any listing or make any statement that discourages or indicates a preference for or against any guest on account of gender, unless the host shares living spaces with the guest.
• Airbnb hosts may:
• Make a unit available to guests of the host’s gender and not the other, where the host shares living spaces with the guest.

I mean Air BNB aren't exactly top of the ethics tree anyway as a business.

I definitely did not mean to add in not, and it wasn’t a sneaky add. It was a genuine post.
I think it’s right that it should be gender not sex.

I don’t have all the answers, but I’m allowed to name a problem, regardless.

Oh, there's a bit more:

'Gender Exemption:

• Airbnb Experience hosts may offer a single gender experience if it is necessary to create a safe space (one that does not incite harm or danger and one that is not illegal), protect the safety and privacy of participants, and/or comply with legal or cultural requirements.

This. It's not polarising, it's binary.

Either trans women are women or they aren't.

It's not, trans women are women (north pole), trans women are not women (south pole) with the difference between the two being varying degrees of north and south.

If trans women are not women, they should not be in women's spaces.

If trans women are women, what is a woman and what is the purpose of this category?

Does anyone else read that to mean that you can in fact exclude trans women from your Airbnb if you share living spaces with your guests?

Can you explain why gender trumps sex because I still don't get it?

Fuck sake. Bad afternoon. I agree with the posters who commented on my post above. That is, birth sex is immutable. I’ll go and lie down now!

Yes. 'both sides' Hermione. Remember it is 'both sides'.

Male people post that type of post on social media. And feminists post accurately describing the needs of female people. But apparently that counts as polarisation.

And we are told that there are always going to be bad apples, while not one poster can provide the statistics that convinced them that the group of male people that they are advocating for have a risk level of committing sex offences that is the same or lower than female people in the general UK population.

It shows just how purely the arguments for this inclusion is solely based on emotional pleas. Those pleas worked and now anyone who rejects those pleas are transphobic or haters. Rather than just female people campaigning to ensure that when sex matters in a situation, that sex is prioritised over gender.

It must be shit for anyone new to get their heads around it. Who do you trust, who do you listen to. And yet, Hermione, we constantly say read widely, read original sources to verify what you have read and read constantly. It is the only way to get your head around these issues and to cut the emotional tactics that gets used, and have been used on this very thread.

I read it like that. So not a stand alone flat, but a room in your house, yes.

I think it’s right that it should be gender not sex.

What should be?

Ok @marmaladeandpeanutbutter just seen your update, no worries!

That’s how I read it.

Depends if the transwoman identifies himself as such, or if he claims to just be a woman. I think arguable either way, tbh.

But thankfully Shona Robison has reassured us thus: "There is no evidence that predatory and abusive men have ever had to pretend to be anything else to carry out predatory and abusive behaviour.". Thank goodness, eh? Otherwise that could be a really tricky situation!

The law in England at least is that you can't discriminate based on sex without using the single sex exceptions. A self ID MTF without a GRC is legally a man.

Just read the next post so I have deleted as my questions were irrelevant now.

Neither is wrong per se, but there is little point these different thinkers conversing as it will just repeat the same narrative time and time again.

///

Agreed if we're meaning from a navel gazing, pondering your existence kind of conversation.

When the latter have beliefs that are manifesting into actual real harm to women and young people then the conversation MUST be had. It doesn't matter how upsetting or icky the reality is it must be discussed.

Gay men and lesbians weren't demanding the use of the opposite sex's spaces, sports, awards, etc. They just wanted the same rights as everyone else. There is no comparison.

You don't get it because women using men-only spaces might be annoying, but you won't be in fear, as women are when a man invades their safe spaces.

You need to learn how much women fear men before you comment.