Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

To me, a trans person MTF should be able to use a "ladies" toilet but a cross dresser should not.

So to you, we should be able to challenge a cross dresser we see in a women's toilet, but not a trans woman, yes?

How do we know the difference?

Go away. This thread is not for you. Plus it's not true.

@AllPrincessAnneshorses

Awww look at the little virtue signaller trying to shut women up. Yep, you'll do for the men in frocks brigade - they love it when the real women comply.

It might sound 'dreadful' but to many women, especially those who have even more reason to want single sex spaces (eg certain religions), it feels exactly like violation. You cannot police how other women describe the feeling of men, and that's what TW are, forcing their way into what should be a safe space.

Well exactly why I said it's a grey area. I don't think there's any legal standing on it?

It's so sad to see so little respect in society for women and girls and their needs for services to protect them. I'm quite surprised at the men who have nothing to say about their wives having to strip in front of men claiming they are ladies now, or their young daughters being unsafe on their own in the loos with a dressed up grown man or no longer having opportunities in sport.
When women say they need single-sex spaces the correct response should be "Oh dear, sorry you are no longer included in society; what shall we do to fix this?" NOT threats of extreme violence and calling names like "TERF", "Bigot", "Transphobe!"

I'm a woman and I think of trans women as women as well, just not born that way. So I would not call them men. I think that's nasty and insulting.

Why on earth would you think stating a basic scientific fact is 'nasty and insulting'?

Well, that's one way of putting it.
I just feel like any 'trans positive' space will potentially be a 'no longer safe' space for many women.

You mean a trans woman, of course

She said and meant a male.

Don't be silly @eatfigs And your transphobic post, if that was you with the ridiculously inflammatory and alarmist language, makes it difficult to have sensible debate and discussion around this topic.

Exactly

Therr are and are going to be a lot of grey areas but apparently even saying “we need to give it a bit more thought” rather than making uneducated blanket bans is likened to abandoning all women’s rights.

@HowardTJMoon is it transphobic for me to want to use a rape crisis service or a shelter that's people's only by women? Can you see why I might need that?

Would it make your lip curl and drag up bitter memories of homophobia?

Do you know that those services are no longer guaranteed for women? That the wonderful JKRowling set up a rape shelter in Edinburgh because the only option available had appointed a transwoman as CEO, who objected to women asking for female counsellors? The suggestion was that women who wanted single sex rape crisis services needed to 'reframe their trauma'.

You see, you get upset because of behaviour that happened in the past. I'm upset- and actually furious- about behaviour happening right now that disadvantages the most vulnerable in society. Spoiler- that's children and abused women.

If we're talking "legal" I suppose one could restrict admission to women's toilets to trans women with GRCs.

It would have to be either socially necessary, or demanded by the toilets' owners, for them to carry GRCs and produce them on demand. And for women to be able to report those who refused or did not have a GRC and to have them removed. How would that go, do you think?

Well of course, obviously, but that's not what the poster said. They insisted on using the term 'man' when they're actually a trans woman. Not to mention the unnecessary inflammatory language used in their post.

No she didn't. You quoted her, clutching your pearls at "male".

I'm not sure what 'pro-trans' means.

Do I know, like, respect and socialise with trans people? Yes, very happily.
Do I think they have the right to live their lives safely and freely? Yes.
Do I think trans people spend their lives wanting to gain access to women's safe spaces and win sporting medals? No.Most trans people just get on with their lives. The ones I know are teachers, shop assistants, authors, academics.
Would i have an issue if a transwoman used the same loos as me? No.

Do I think all men who self-ID as trans are trans? No.
Do I think some men self ID specifically to gain access to female safe spaces, either for an erotic kick or to control women? Yes.
Would I have an issue if some self-ID-ing misogynistic autogynophile used the same loos as me to get a kick out of making women uncomfortable? Yes.
Do I think men who went through male puberty should be allowed to compete against women in sport? No. I think we must all recognise we can't do everything we want in life, just because we want it. If we don't fit the criteria for a job or hobby, then we don't.
Do I think the trans movement overall adequately separates out these issues and respects women's views on them? No.

Do I think transmen are women and transwomen are men? No. I think they are transwomen and transmen, and this difference should be accepted and not obscured.

What does that make me?

Stating fact isn't alarmist and inflammatory.

So if it's a 'grey area', in what circumstances would it be acceptable for biological males to be in women's spaces and/or sports?

Why are spaces segregated by sex in the first place?

Could you explain why you think this please? Here's my post:

When there's a female-only space and a male decides to disregard this boundary and impose himself anyway, how is this not a violation?

What do you disagree with and why? Thank you.

Because they identify as women, trans women that is. It's disrespectful to refer to them as 'men' contrary to their wishes. I hope you wouldn't be rude enough to do that in person, though I suspect not.

@Meadowwild sums it up for me.

@HowardTJMoon

"But at the same time the trans people I've met and know seem a million miles away from the ugly stereotypes that are bandied about. Just like the anti-gay stereotypes I saw in the 80s didn't match up with the gay people I knew."

Women feel they are being told to accept people with male genitalia into their spaces. People who can call themselves "women" based only on a piece of paper and nothing more. You must have some idea of the statistics for rape, sexual assault and domestic violence against women and girls and you hopefully also know that it is always at the back of a woman's mind. Do you know the percentage of successful rape convictions and what is entailed for the victim?

Something as simple as a male jogger running up behind a woman will make her fear the worst. It is what we live with on a daily basis. For god sake, even the police force is rife with mysogyny, vile sexism and sexual assault. We have nowhere to turn. As a man you cannot understand that any more than a white person would know what it is to be black.

As a woman I do not want to share an intimate space (changing room, hospital ward etc) with a stranger with male genitalia and to get undressed in front of that person. Do you think it is fair to sweep aside such fears and tell us to put up and shut up without any debate, consultation, explanation - nothing?

Finally I think you are wrongly conflating gay rights with trans rights. Gay men did not want to share women's spaces, be treated as women or call themselves women.

I think it's disrespectful to dress up as a woman and declare all women's things are now yours. It's colonisation.

Don't be disingenuous @eatfigs

Because they identify as women, trans women that is.

I and most of the population don't see them as actually "women" in the same way women are, ie they are male. They can call themselves what they like, obviously. But not compel others to share in it.

There are males who are kind and lovely and respectful and have no wish to perve and grope and bother and intimidate. There are transwomen who want a quiet life and desperately want the world to see them as the women they feel they were born to be. Then there are men who are not kind and respectful; who think women are there for their entertainment or are something scraped off their shoe.There are men who want to grab and grope and perve and peep. And there are transwomen who get off on being near women for all the most gross reasons.
I did my teacher training in a town with numerous girls only schools, a women's teacher training college and 2 nursing schools full of females. I was flashed, a man wanked himself off outside my bedroom window and then came back another day and tried to get into our flat. Two students were raped ( and we all know there would have been more). It was a normal Friday night to be groped or rubbed up against by a hard on in a night club. The college gardener was arrested for being a peeping Tom. We never ever walked home alone. Nobody talked about it. It was part of being woman. We were there in the 80s. We all knew about the Yorkshire Ripper. The sad thing is that if we let everyone who is male into our spaces then it means the ones who mean us no harm get to be there but it also means thst the ones who mean us absolute harm are also free to be there too. Having grown up as a woman I cannot ever think that that is a safe thing to do.

I think it's disrespectful to dress up as a woman and declare all women's things are now yours. It's colonisation.

This. And Mr Progressive Man in particular needs to have a little think about that.

They can identify and believe they are something to their heart’s content. What they don’t get to do is insist that I believe that too. That’s up to me.

Why is their wishes respected, but my wish not to collude in something I don’t believe in, not respected? Why should I be compelled into believing a lie? That’s not kind.