Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

Once again these threads are totally about transwomen. The majority of transpeople, though, are women, mainly young women. They are more likely to receive irreversible surgery than men .

But it’s all about TW…..which says it all, really

The trans issue is the exact opposite of the gay rights fight.

Gay people were asking to be accepted for who they are.

Trans people are attempting to get everyone to affirm they are something they're not.

Gay rights didn't require other people to compromise their rights to accommodate them.

What rights do transwomen want, which are currently denied them?

why don't we hear of transmen wanting to invade men's spaces ?

I genuinely cannot understand the ‘pro-trans’ point of view, it makes no sense, you know people can’t change sex so why try to force other people to go along with a lie? It’s gaslighting on an extraordinary scale.

Most priests are genuinely men of faith and ethics; most sports coaches - ditto; most people who work with infants and toddlers - ditto; most teachers - ditto; most doctors - ditto..

But there are some men, and some (though many fewer) women, who have used the cover of these professions to get close to children and women, and harm, abuse, and/or kill them. Becaise of that, we have safeguarding rules which ALL members of those professions have to abide by.

The trans umbrella is just as attractive to predators - I think the stats bear that out.

Why do we have rules about DBS checks / chaperones, etc, etc for all the other categories ... but not for those self-identifying as trans? How does that make sense?

Coming back to the 'what rights don't trans people have' - in fact they have additional rights. The right to falsify information about their sex on official documents. Why on earth would that be a 'right' people should have?

Ok, phobia aside, trans people aside, how do you feel about bearded blokes in mini skirts sharing spaces with young girls? How do you feel about the middle aged Canadian chap who is swimming competitively - and changing- with teen aged girls? Or the older swim judge who took every opportunity to walk through the girls changing rooms, despite that being unnecessary?
You can curl your lip about the bigotry of those talking about bearded men in miniskirts, but if that is what they are protesting about wouldn’t you agree with them? Are you ok with your teen daughters having to shower with boys, whether they want to or not? Because that’s what’s happening. This isn’t a ‘reds under the bed’ situation. It’s not a culture war or a toxic debate. It is a conversation about how to handle a series of unacceptable situations that are happening every day at the expense of girls.

So momentarily detach yourself from your quite understandable desire to be liberal and non judgmental and tell me how we should handle the above situations?

Because they're women and they're happier (and safer) in women's spaces.

Once again too: acceptance of trans women isnt a woman's issue.

It's a man issue. Why do these men not feel safe in mens toilets and changing rooms? Trans men feel safe in women's ones because they're women.

Why don't men feel safe in theirs? Not a female issue to solve.

My issue with trans women in female spaces, is that trans people who I know have struggled to be accepted as who they are would never put themselves in a situation where they would be open to being further rejected or ridiculed. This is where I am challenged in my acceptance of the intrusion to female spaces.
Who would do this ? or the intrusion of any specific space where you could be rejected.

I'll happily admit that as I'm a man then my perception of the issues and risks is likely to be different to that of a woman. And I think there are valid concerns from both sides that will need sympathetic work and compassion to reach a workable compromise.

Of course you have every right to an opinion here and its a valid one but no man is going to be in danger from a Transman in a men only space and I also don't see why women have to compromise and work to find a solution when we didn't cause the problem.
Some men feeling unsafe in men only spaces is not something that is a problem for women to solve

I don’t think this is true, is it? I just think men don’t feel threatened by trans men, for a variety of fairly obvious reasons.

I agree, especially when people hurry to affirm gender-questioning teenagers: “Yay, trans kids!”
How is it something to celebrate if a young person seems deeply unhappy and unwilling/ unable to accept their sexed body?
It’s the only body they’ll ever have.
They can try to modify it, but there is no magic wand that’ll make them change sex.

I am pro trans in that I fully support any adults right to wear what they like and call themselves what they like without fear of harassment, judgement or losing their job etc. I recognise that gender norms can be a problem and our relationships to our bodies are complicated and all that business, so I empathise with anyone questioning this or choosing to live differently. There are loads of fantastic trans people out there. As a bisexual woman I have taken an interest in LGBT matters my whole life and believe that yes, the T (and Q and A etc) belong - there is enough overlap in the issues and discrimination that gay and trans people face to unite us.

However, I am gender critical (I don’t think gender norms are a construct and generally not a good thing(. I also believe that sex is important due to the power difference between men and women and also because of how we are affected by our biological characteristics and roles. so I’m for single sex spaces and against self ID and believe in treading very carefully when it comes to children and their gender identity. So most people would describe me as a TERF I guess 🙄 I also think that a lot of the TRA movement is pure misogeny and an attempt to silence women.

You can curl your lip about the bigotry of those talking about bearded men in miniskirts

Thanks for your permission. I'll continue doing just that. Just like thinking about the "Backs against the wall, lads, the poof's coming through" about a slightly effeminate lad in my class makes me curl my lip now and wish I'd said something then. Or the bigotry about "limp-wristed bum-boys" being in public toilets being an imminent danger to boys sharing the same space. Or the bigotry about supposed lesbian PE teachers ("but just look at her, she's got short hair and doesn't wear heels!") being an imminent danger to girls.

but if that is what they are protesting about wouldn’t you agree with them?

I'd try to work out how significant and realistic a concern it is before I'd agree or disagree. There are aspects of the trans debate about which I have so far only seen rhetoric, vitriol and slurs rather than sober analysis of facts. As stated previously, the slurs and stereotypes I've seen bandied about have largely pushed me away from digging in to the debate so far.

Are you ok with your teen daughters having to shower with boys, whether they want to or not?

I'll ask my daughter and get back to you.

Gay rights didn't require other people to compromise their rights to accommodate them.

Really? I was going to say that you must be too young to remember what it used to be like but actually you can find out what it's like by just looking at parts of America today. People feeling like their rights are being infringed by them / their children being "forced" to see same-sex couples walking down the street, or kissing, or getting married, or being recognisably gay in any way.

It absolutely is couched in terms of the "right" of non-gay people to not be exposed to gay people and their "deviant" lifestyles.

Arty on curling your lip about the bigotry towards gay people in the 80s. I was there too. But check your facts before assuming bigotry in those raising safeguarding concerns in the situations I've described.

It would be a shame if your fear of bigotry caused you to overlook a serious safeguarding situation.

I'm simply recognising a very similar style of demonisation. Whether the anti-trans thing is largely driven by bigotry in the same way that the anti-gay thing largely was remains to be seen.

Thanks for your permission. I'll continue doing just that. Just like thinking about the "Backs against the wall, lads, the poof's coming through" about a slightly effeminate lad in my class makes me curl my lip now and wish I'd said something then. Or the bigotry about "limp-wristed bum-boys" being in public toilets being an imminent danger to boys sharing the same space. Or the bigotry about supposed lesbian PE teachers ("but just look at her, she's got short hair and doesn't wear heels!") being an imminent danger to girls.

Im not sure what your point is here. Because there has been bigotry in the past, women should just accept men into their spaces, despite the clear safeguarding risks? Is that it?

There are very significant differences between gay rights and what TRAs are trying to achieve now - already clearly delineated on this and the previous thread.

If you haven't thought any of that through, fine, but be aware that many on here have. The vast majority of people accept anyone presenting as they like. But pretending that men can turn into women and have rights to their spaces - no.

Exactly
They had all the rights when they were a man - nothing denied to them - they just want more now. Ours.

I thought Glosswitch summed it up beautifully

I'm curious as to what the pro-trans people think the reasoning behind dividing spaces at all is? I can see the rationale for single-sex spaces. I can see the rationale for completely mixed spaces, even if I disagree with it. But single gender? Why would people need to have a space just for people with the same gendered feelings as them?

As for risk, there are lots of groups of men who might be at higher risk in male spaces. Gay men. Disabled men. Very elderly men. Teenage boys. Our solution isn't to say that all these men and boys should come into female spaces - and that anyone who objects is claiming that all these vulnerable males who are probably very nice people are actually all evil predators.

Women deserve safety, privacy and dignity. This remains true even if certain groups of men feel uncomfortable in male spaces. That is not women's problem to fix.

All the people being 'cool' and accepting of transwomen . If you think transwomen are women why do you differentiate. All this " I have friends who are women and friends who are transwomen". Surely we're all the same according to you so all your special, special friends are just women. Except they're not are they. You have functioning eyes just the same as the majority of people are lucky to have and your brain tells you, just as well as mine does ,exactly who is a biological woman and who is not. I have never introduced myself to anyone as a woman. Its absolutely obvious that that's what I am. I don't recall anyone who is trans saying " Hi I'm Rose and I'm a transwoman". They don't need to. They know you know the minute you see them.You can intimidate us with your aggression, you can force us to be too scared to speak out but you can never make me believe that a man can become a woman or a woman a man.

There is no problem having transowmen as friends

I see no problem reconciling that with the fact that I don't think they belong in womens safe spaces, womens sex segregated anything

It is only a subset of transgender people who actually insist on that - I could not be friends with them but fortunately they haven't crossed my friendship circle