Reform has another seat . 5

[hattie43]

Just that , after a recount number 5 seat has been secured.

Given that the 4 main centre-left parties (Labour, Lib-Dem, Green, SNP) got about 60% of the vote. And centre/right (Tories + Reform) got about 40% - it only needs Starmer to work with the others (ie put them on committees etc) for it to be quite a fair result.

Again, you are making the assumptions. Not everybody makes decisions about people from a place of fear. I remember the days when the left could have normal discussions with people who had different viewpoints (including individuals on the right!) They would stand by their opinion yes, but they would listen and try to understand why they feel that way.

Life is a rich tapestry and you can never know exactly why people make certain choices. You don’t know everyone’s history,
values or experiences just based on who they vote for.

I can actually see Reform being good for galvanising all the other parties' will to work more effectively together on key issues and keeping hold of a moral compass here in the UK. And I can see Keir Starmer leading that process, with his 'country first, party second' mantra. You saw nods from both the right (not far right) and left leaders yesterday for wanting a more respectful politics after the turmoil of recent times. They realise that the stability of the world rests on keeping the far right at bay.

Most voters are moderates, centrists. It's why Major and Cameron were popular, and Blair equally so. Starmer has rebuilt Labour in much the same way Blair did. I predict the Tories will regroup and become a more moderate version of the unpopular party we've seen in recent years. It's the only way they'll mount a credible challenge.

In the meantime I think you'll see politicians on both the right and the left roundly condemning Farage and his cohort. They all know how dangerous he is to the stability of life, law and order in the UK.

The thing is there are many disillusioned people in the UK who see their country as not being for them any more. Same as in the US. You can't ignore these people by labelling them racists (same rules as labelling those who stick up of for women as bigots)

Their concerns need to be heard and I agree with the PP that it should promote a more balanced political landscape of the nation and all its facets.

I am concerned about the awful candidates a Gaza ticket. Reform will be a reaction to that in many places would have thought.

That doesn’t resolve what’s driving the shift though and ignoring that won’t dampen much

You have, entirely, and you continue to do so in each reply.

Another Reform policy is to ban any history teaching in schools that doesn’t basically take a ‘Rule Britannia’ slant. So the slave trade, colonialism etc will be presented as the good old golden days and all the atrocities glossed over. Or, if teachers really have to be boring and mention atrocities of Imperialism, they have to ‘balance’ this with an atrocity perpetrated by another nation. This is actually written in their ‘contract’.

Does this really not alarm people?
4 million voted for this?

What will be next, the ‘Farage Youth?’

One of the problems is how divisive this country is. It seems we cannot have sensible debates without a raft of name calling. You voted for Reform? Racist. Labour? Woke. Tory? Twat. An on and on it goes. Legitimate concerns about mass immigration almost immediately find themselves accused of racism.

I can understand why people voted Reform and have very legitimate concerns about mass immigration myself. I grew up in an area and saw it change, for the worse, over the years. This was because of diametrically opposed cultures. As a teenager, in a school uniform no less, myself and my friends were viewed as fair game. Constantly harassed, followed, commented on by large groups of men in the community. Not one or two bad apples; it was a clear cultural divide. The same large groups felt perfectly at ease setting up tables in our town centre with leaflets that were homophobic, anti-white, supporting terrorism.

Of course, this is not every immigrant, to be completely clear. I have heard from lots of immigrants that have similar experiences to me as well. I am not anti-immigration, but I am against groups who make no attempt to assimilate and openly despise British culture.

I made the decision as soon as I could to move as I did not want my children experiencing what I did growing up. It’s not racist to have concerns about swaths of people entering the country who do not assimilate and promote ideologies that are against everything most British people hold dear.

We all know that the vast majority of sexism in society is carried out by white, British men. What woman under the age of 25 is not cat-called on a daily basis by ‘white van men’ or when walking past building sites etc.

And if you are bothered about ‘men with different values’ - have a look at Farage himself who refuses to denounce, of all people, Andrew (S)Tate! Worry about what your son’s are looking at online. Worry about the millions of British-born men who have kids with multiple women and are enabled, by British society, to pay next to nothing in maintenance for any of them. Where are the ‘values’ there?

You can have legitimate concerns about the impact of mass immigration without stooping to voting reform. Everyone knows what they are. In our area, everything they post on sm gets hundreds of comments from people who essentially want to deport everyone who isn't white British and don't care where to. Or worse. I haven't seen any sensible debate at all or legitimate concerns - the concerns are all false and as a consequence of believing TikTok misinformation and scaremongering. Nothing changes their mind. Bigots and proud.

No and yes, born here, lived in SA and the UK. Travelled around Africa staying with relatives. My Mother and GM were born in the UK, but lived in other countries. Back generations had a big family background in the Merchant Navy. However my Mother's first DH was the Windrush generation, we mixed with his family as well, while growing up, because of half siblings. My user name is my favourite animal in my Grandfather's language.

"Depend if you want to see a dentist or get healthcare I guess"

Have you asked a dentist or a doctor what the biggest issues are in their sector? Do they agree that it's immigration?

👏👏👏👏 perfectly said.

My 16yr old DD tells me kids her age all support Reform, thank God we have talked politics with her for years so she’s got a lot more understanding and would never vote reform. I mean her and her 19yr old brother wouldn’t be here without immigration. I hope labour don’t reduce the voting age, as this will be the outcome, many more reform seats

I wouldn’t say it is the same as the U.S at all - the Labour Party had a landslide victory, Starmer managed to lead this victory from a huge defeat in 2019, not easy in such a short space of time and it is only the fourth time Labour have managed to go from opposition to government in the history of British politics! People cry, ‘but what about Proportional representation’, arguing if we had that system, Reform would have won more seats. Yes, they would have but they know the system we have and yet they didn’t even mention it prior to the election! Equally, they arrogantly make the assumption that others didn’t tactically vote so for example in my house one adult voted Green, another Labour, if it was the PR system we both would have voted Labour as would many of our friends. So it that case Reform probably would have lost votes as nobody thinks they have any plan they could actually pull off to run the country. People voted Reform largely for revenge!

In the US, the politics is totally different, for a start the Democrats are very much a watered down version of the Labour Party, which many Americans would not vote for, the ‘American Dream’ is a driving force there, the UK doesn’t have a cultural equivalent and this is why some were arguing, prior to leaving the EU that we have much more in common culturally to the EU than the U.S, even though we both speak the same language! We introduced a Welfare state post Second World War and public services are a very important consideration for most people voting- e.g many older people in my Mum’s rural town want improved NHS and guess what her constituency swung from Conservative to Labour, the COvid lies was also Ian important reason her and her friends switched to Labour. Equally, in the south east there were many people who voted Remain and have seen the financial devastation that has had on the economy as they work in jobs where they have lost business and become poorer for it. So no I don’t think there comparable at all, perhaps the only similarity is that the very poor have been abandoned by the Tory government through austerity and globally the rich are getting richer which has had an awful impact on peoples’ lives, I see this in the US, where because of the cultural differences the impact of the global rich getting richer is even worse! Many people in the UK voted Labour as they don’t see this inequality that is impacting all classes, including the middle classes as fair and don’t think a right wing government would help to turn that around at all!!

I hope that fear of reform will prompt the other parties to address immigration issues in a sensible way.

Interesting as Reform had set up a table on Wednesday night, opposite a commuter station I live near, it has lots of sixth formers using it to go home, i was waiting for someone at the station and could see and hear some 17 year olds challenging the Reform men on everything- the parties associated racism, their Climate change denial, Reform were taken to the cleaners intellectually by these kids so do I have hope, yes I do!

I think I'd need stats rather than just your daughter's group. Traditionally, young people don't support the far right, although this changed a bit all over Europe at the recent European and national elections.

I thought Clacton had one if the most ‘white British’ demographics in the U.K. - basically it’s white pensioners for the most part?

Those over 55s who shout loudest about ‘immigrants who don’t share our values’ are frequently the very same people who think nothing of buying cheap holiday / retirement flats in Spain etc without bothering to learn a word of the language nor a thought about how all their naff pubs etc have changed the coastline of Spain - especially when they don’t live in the flats a lot of the time. And they are first to complain if they don’t get healthcare over there - even though many voted Brexit.

A few of up posted on another thread that some of our local secondary schools held their own ballets and reform won them by quite a majority. They had a slick tiktok campaign.

You absolutely asked for respect. You've been repeatedly bemoaning people not respecting others with beliefs they abhor, have you not?

I'm pretty sure you would judge authoritarian Marxist-Leninists or virulently anti-Semitic neo-nazis, for example, which makes your stance about making such judgements hypocritical.
Judgement exists for a reason. It's a protective instinct. I said it was human nature to make judgements about people based on their actions. This is not an assumption, it's reality. That's not specific to voting, it covers all kinds of actions. If you abhor those actions (or beliefs) you likely won't respect the person. Have you somehow transcended your humanity and lost that instinct? If so, I fear for you.

Have looked at their policy and they have said they want history lessons to be more patriotic, nothing about "the good old days" so can't see a problem with that. We should be teaching children about the history of this country as well as the history of other countries.

There's a lot of people on Mumsnet who seem to have a real dislike for the UK, England especially, and whenever immigration is brought up people always go on about colonization as if we were the only country to have ever done this.

So you think that the HUGE increase in immigration is not causing any issues at all in the country?

What huge increase in immigration? I mean we are granting more work visas but that was inevitable post-Brexit. All other statistics look to be reduced.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-march-2024/summary-of-latest-statistics

The left could have normal discussions with Tories, because for the most part, they weren't outright fascists. You can't reason with fascists.
That's a complete game changer. You're pretending these are harmless differences of opinion, and they are not.
You should make decisions about fascists from fear, because only a fool or a mentally unbalanced person wouldn't be scared of racist, xenophobic nationalists getting control.
That's why people say Reform voters are stupid and/or irrational.
Life may be a rich tapestry, but as Forrest Gump would say, stupid is as stupid does.

Is there a sensible way to address immigration issues that will satisfy Reform?

I'm not sure there is.