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Reform has another seat . 5

272 replies

hattie43 · 05/07/2024 18:04

Just that , after a recount number 5 seat has been secured.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
PublicsserviceHow · 06/07/2024 12:06

@IwillNOTplayfastandloosewithpublicfinances

You need to to quote and provide links /evidence when making all these claims

lemonmeringueno3 · 06/07/2024 12:07

I think there might be a sensible way to address immigration that might make some of their more moderate supporters swing away. Maybe. I hope so.

2dogsandabudgie · 06/07/2024 12:15

Shakeoffyourchains · 06/07/2024 11:59

Is there a sensible way to address immigration issues that will satisfy Reform?

I'm not sure there is.

Well if Labour stop the small boat crossings that would definitely help. If you don't live in the south east this isn't a problem but every day a crossing is made it makes local news. People know that France are being paid £50 odd million a year and not really stopping the crossings. That makes people angry. The fact that the traffickers are making money from this makes people angry. The fact that it costs so many million a year to put the migrants in hotels makes people angry, the fact that France is a safe country so no one even needs to make the crossing makes people angry. The fact that people haven't been listened to for years and shouted down and called racists and bigots makes people angry.

It isn't about people not wanting any immigration at all, it's about immigration being controlled and knowing who is coming in to the country. It's all very well people saying that they want to come here because they speak English, we cannot let an infinite amount of people in. Our population percentage wise has grown more in the last 30 years than that of France and Germany yet our country in size of land mass is smaller.

EasternStandard · 06/07/2024 12:16

lemonmeringueno3 · 06/07/2024 12:07

I think there might be a sensible way to address immigration that might make some of their more moderate supporters swing away. Maybe. I hope so.

What would that be?

What can you do other than Aus style hardline policy which so far people didn’t vote enough to get

What else do you think would work?

lemonmeringueno3 · 06/07/2024 12:20

I don't know because I'm not a politician or an expert, merely speculating that the numbers of people voting reform - no matter what we think of them - can't be ignored if they are starting to take a significant share of the vote.

wincarwoo · 06/07/2024 12:29

IwillNOTplayfastandloosewithpublicfinances · 06/07/2024 11:22

I thought Clacton had one if the most ‘white British’ demographics in the U.K. - basically it’s white pensioners for the most part?

Those over 55s who shout loudest about ‘immigrants who don’t share our values’ are frequently the very same people who think nothing of buying cheap holiday / retirement flats in Spain etc without bothering to learn a word of the language nor a thought about how all their naff pubs etc have changed the coastline of Spain - especially when they don’t live in the flats a lot of the time. And they are first to complain if they don’t get healthcare over there - even though many voted Brexit.

In Clacton one in five has never had a job. With those stats you can see how resentment would build.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65984429.amp

wincarwoo · 06/07/2024 12:30

lemonmeringueno3 · 06/07/2024 12:20

I don't know because I'm not a politician or an expert, merely speculating that the numbers of people voting reform - no matter what we think of them - can't be ignored if they are starting to take a significant share of the vote.

I agree. Lots of reasonable people are concerned about illegal immigration.

EasternStandard · 06/07/2024 12:35

lemonmeringueno3 · 06/07/2024 12:20

I don't know because I'm not a politician or an expert, merely speculating that the numbers of people voting reform - no matter what we think of them - can't be ignored if they are starting to take a significant share of the vote.

I agree with you there

If people want to look at what works Aus is a good example. I think we’ll see more from Reform though as the GE vote was for a party that will do the opposite

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 06/07/2024 12:57

wincarwoo · 06/07/2024 12:29

In Clacton one in five has never had a job. With those stats you can see how resentment would build.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65984429.amp

That article says that most of them who never had a job are on benefits and not looking for work. And if they never had a job then they never paid in to the system and are guilty of EXACTLY what they blame migrants for.

It also doesn’t say all the jobs went to migrants.

At least the migrants got off their arses and moved to where they think jobs might be available. These never-employed Clactonians should migrate to where more work is available if there’s nothing local.

No wonder people call them thick if they won’t take action and never tried, then blame those who are trying to get a better life.

Zanatdy · 06/07/2024 13:02

OhmygodDont · 06/07/2024 11:23

A few of up posted on another thread that some of our local secondary schools held their own ballets and reform won them by quite a majority. They had a slick tiktok campaign.

Exactly, that’s where kids mg DD’s age get their news from. My DD told me the other day Kate was having chemo in the US, I said is this from Tiktok? She said yes but it’s a proper news channel. Google of course found nothing of the sort. I’ve seen friends on FB say their kids secondary mock elections came out reform too. It’s so scary

LiterallyOnFire · 06/07/2024 13:03

IwillNOTplayfastandloosewithpublicfinances · 06/07/2024 09:49

Another Reform policy is to ban any history teaching in schools that doesn’t basically take a ‘Rule Britannia’ slant. So the slave trade, colonialism etc will be presented as the good old golden days and all the atrocities glossed over. Or, if teachers really have to be boring and mention atrocities of Imperialism, they have to ‘balance’ this with an atrocity perpetrated by another nation. This is actually written in their ‘contract’.

Does this really not alarm people?
4 million voted for this?

What will be next, the ‘Farage Youth?’

Farage is not about to seize power. So no he won't be forming his answer to Hitler youth. Could we all calm down a bit?

cosmicfig · 06/07/2024 13:55

XChrome · 06/07/2024 11:48

The left could have normal discussions with Tories, because for the most part, they weren't outright fascists. You can't reason with fascists.
That's a complete game changer. You're pretending these are harmless differences of opinion, and they are not.
You should make decisions about fascists from fear, because only a fool or a mentally unbalanced person wouldn't be scared of racist, xenophobic nationalists getting control.
That's why people say Reform voters are stupid and/or irrational.
Life may be a rich tapestry, but as Forrest Gump would say, stupid is as stupid does.

How do you know what discussions I have had in the past and with whom? And why do you still keep making assumptions about reform voters?

You’re clearly very passionate about your opinion* *and are clearly not wanting to open your mind even a teeny bit to other points of view. You will only consider people who don’t vote as you want them to, as fascist or stupid. That’s irrational wouldn’t you say?

MadameMassiveSalad · 06/07/2024 14:03

What the hell is WRONG with people?!

Shakeoffyourchains · 06/07/2024 16:30

2dogsandabudgie · 06/07/2024 12:15

Well if Labour stop the small boat crossings that would definitely help. If you don't live in the south east this isn't a problem but every day a crossing is made it makes local news. People know that France are being paid £50 odd million a year and not really stopping the crossings. That makes people angry. The fact that the traffickers are making money from this makes people angry. The fact that it costs so many million a year to put the migrants in hotels makes people angry, the fact that France is a safe country so no one even needs to make the crossing makes people angry. The fact that people haven't been listened to for years and shouted down and called racists and bigots makes people angry.

It isn't about people not wanting any immigration at all, it's about immigration being controlled and knowing who is coming in to the country. It's all very well people saying that they want to come here because they speak English, we cannot let an infinite amount of people in. Our population percentage wise has grown more in the last 30 years than that of France and Germany yet our country in size of land mass is smaller.

But would it help?

The two potential solutions to stopping small boat crossings, creating safe routes for claiming asylum with efficient processing or increasing border security, would both require an increase in spending at least initially.

Creating safe routes with efficient processing of claims would be the best solution as it would essentially eliminate the need for people traffickers at source but, given the majority of asylum claims are accepted, you'd have to accept this would allow a few thousand people in each year.

I can't see farage & co quietly accepting that solution and no doubt they'll still be stirring up division, and to be honest, given the conversations I've had with people who are angry about this topic I can't see them going for it either.

So to satisfy them you'd have to go down the increasing border security and investing in personnel and equipment to patrol the coast and round up those that make it over. That'll maybe slow illegal migrantion for a few months but people traffickers are organised, sophisticated, and well-connected, if there's money to be made they'll find other routes in and then you're back to square one. And farage and co will be sure to capitialise on that failure too.

Add to that the fact that small boat crossings are only a small part of illegal migration (there are far more illegal migrants who have come here on work/study visas and never left) so even if you could eradicate it completely your not going to see a significant reduction in numbers.

And none of the above even touches on the wider issue of mass migration. If their issue is that they feel the country is already overpopulated or that their culture is being eroded then immigration controls aren't going to address those issues either.

As I said I can't see any sensible solution that would satisfy reform and their supporters, unless they're willing to change their view on the subject.

EasternStandard · 06/07/2024 16:44

Shakeoffyourchains · 06/07/2024 16:30

But would it help?

The two potential solutions to stopping small boat crossings, creating safe routes for claiming asylum with efficient processing or increasing border security, would both require an increase in spending at least initially.

Creating safe routes with efficient processing of claims would be the best solution as it would essentially eliminate the need for people traffickers at source but, given the majority of asylum claims are accepted, you'd have to accept this would allow a few thousand people in each year.

I can't see farage & co quietly accepting that solution and no doubt they'll still be stirring up division, and to be honest, given the conversations I've had with people who are angry about this topic I can't see them going for it either.

So to satisfy them you'd have to go down the increasing border security and investing in personnel and equipment to patrol the coast and round up those that make it over. That'll maybe slow illegal migrantion for a few months but people traffickers are organised, sophisticated, and well-connected, if there's money to be made they'll find other routes in and then you're back to square one. And farage and co will be sure to capitialise on that failure too.

Add to that the fact that small boat crossings are only a small part of illegal migration (there are far more illegal migrants who have come here on work/study visas and never left) so even if you could eradicate it completely your not going to see a significant reduction in numbers.

And none of the above even touches on the wider issue of mass migration. If their issue is that they feel the country is already overpopulated or that their culture is being eroded then immigration controls aren't going to address those issues either.

As I said I can't see any sensible solution that would satisfy reform and their supporters, unless they're willing to change their view on the subject.

Neither of those would work in practise though as with more legal routes you’ll still get people paying as you’ll not meet demand. Unless you think you can meet demand? How many do you envisage

Border security isn’t a solution as over half are granted to stay and therefore you’ll still get profiting from boats

A few countries have implemented policies that work and the electorate is happy enough with them to keep it at each election regardless of left or right in power.

Professer · 06/07/2024 18:38

IwillNOTplayfastandloosewithpublicfinances · 06/07/2024 10:27

We all know that the vast majority of sexism in society is carried out by white, British men. What woman under the age of 25 is not cat-called on a daily basis by ‘white van men’ or when walking past building sites etc.

And if you are bothered about ‘men with different values’ - have a look at Farage himself who refuses to denounce, of all people, Andrew (S)Tate! Worry about what your son’s are looking at online. Worry about the millions of British-born men who have kids with multiple women and are enabled, by British society, to pay next to nothing in maintenance for any of them. Where are the ‘values’ there?

Your response is part of the problem. Instead of believing my (and many others) lived experiences, you immediately tell me that the worst offenders are white, British men.

I absolutely have experienced sexism and harassment from white, British men, but not on the same scale as the gangs of men that populated my former town. It was a culture that was endemic and an entrenched belief system; a clear contempt for females. From the ages of 11 - 21 (when I left), I did not feel comfortable walking around, even with my parents, these men felt safe to approach, comment and harass. I’ve never experienced anything like that since.

NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS. To be very clear. There are, however, clear cultural divisions that are not compatible, assimilation hasn’t happened and something needs to be done.

XChrome · 06/07/2024 18:39

cosmicfig · 06/07/2024 13:55

How do you know what discussions I have had in the past and with whom? And why do you still keep making assumptions about reform voters?

You’re clearly very passionate about your opinion* *and are clearly not wanting to open your mind even a teeny bit to other points of view. You will only consider people who don’t vote as you want them to, as fascist or stupid. That’s irrational wouldn’t you say?

You deserve an Olympic gold medal in point missing. You continually make this about you, when I'm talking in general terms, not about you personally.

Yes, being a person with some working brain cells, I do assume that people who vote for a fascist party just might, in fact, be fascists. I also think people who eat cheese probably like cheese.

Repeat; it is not about having a different point of view. It is about having inherently odious beliefs such as fascism. There is obviously no reasoning with you on this subject, so I'm done trying. Thank you for the discussion.

CoatRack · 06/07/2024 19:32

XChrome · 06/07/2024 18:39

You deserve an Olympic gold medal in point missing. You continually make this about you, when I'm talking in general terms, not about you personally.

Yes, being a person with some working brain cells, I do assume that people who vote for a fascist party just might, in fact, be fascists. I also think people who eat cheese probably like cheese.

Repeat; it is not about having a different point of view. It is about having inherently odious beliefs such as fascism. There is obviously no reasoning with you on this subject, so I'm done trying. Thank you for the discussion.

Edited

"Fascism". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Please do provide your evidence for it though. If you can.

XChrome · 06/07/2024 20:33

CoatRack · 06/07/2024 19:32

"Fascism". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Please do provide your evidence for it though. If you can.

To put it succinctly and not get bogged down in too many details, fascism is far-right, authoritarian nationalism, with xenophobia and often racism at the heart of it.

You need me to to prove what the definition is?
Okey dokey.

https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html

Hmm, that was easy. I wonder why you thought I couldn't do it.

What is fascism?

Fascism is a political ideology that's actually pretty difficult to define.

https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html

Tricho · 06/07/2024 21:20

ClawedUkelele · 05/07/2024 18:47

I don't agree.

I don't necessarily support FPTP but there are democratic arguments in favor of it. It usually results in the most popular party forming the government. PR systems, on the other hand, more often result in coalition governments, following backroom negotiations between the parties. So while PR results in more representative parliaments (or equivalent), they often produce a government that nobody voted for.

In one of the few times FPTP returned a coalition government in the UK, it notably resulted in Lib Dem voters feeling absolutely betrayed, but that's the nature of coalitions.

FPTP has just given us the most distorted result in election history.

Labour had 34% of the vote and yet have 65% of seats

Reform had 14% of the vote and yet 1% of seats

Whether you agree with the policies or not this is a grotesque distortion of the actual feelings of the electorate

Tricho · 06/07/2024 21:50

While I'm at it

That is 34% of a turnout of 60% - not all of the low turnout can be blamed on fptp but maybe if our system was more proportional voter apathy would be less.

So only 20% of the addressable eligible electorate in this country actually expressed a direct wish for a Labour government, and they're now in charge with a "majority"

Gross.

CoatRack · 06/07/2024 21:57

XChrome · 06/07/2024 20:33

To put it succinctly and not get bogged down in too many details, fascism is far-right, authoritarian nationalism, with xenophobia and often racism at the heart of it.

You need me to to prove what the definition is?
Okey dokey.

https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html

Hmm, that was easy. I wonder why you thought I couldn't do it.

I wasn't actually after a definition of fascism, I wanted your evidence that Reform is fascist.

XChrome · 06/07/2024 22:05

CoatRack · 06/07/2024 21:57

I wasn't actually after a definition of fascism, I wanted your evidence that Reform is fascist.

Do you need me to reiterate what's already been posted in this thread by others, or could you just scroll back and save me some typing? I'd appreciate it.

CoatRack · 06/07/2024 22:17

XChrome · 06/07/2024 22:05

Do you need me to reiterate what's already been posted in this thread by others, or could you just scroll back and save me some typing? I'd appreciate it.

I haven't seen any actual fash evidence so far in the thread, so I need you to help me out here please 🙂

I'd appreciate your particular input on it anyway, since you have a definition handy.

XChrome · 06/07/2024 22:27

CoatRack · 06/07/2024 22:17

I haven't seen any actual fash evidence so far in the thread, so I need you to help me out here please 🙂

I'd appreciate your particular input on it anyway, since you have a definition handy.

Okay. This article will save me typing, if you don't mind a bit of a read.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2024/07/reform-candidates-are-sinister-farage

Reform candidates are sinister

Nigel Farage’s company-cum-political party is not the answer to any of the UK’s ills.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2024/07/reform-candidates-are-sinister-farage