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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To remind everyone after the celebrations subside to apply the same level of scrutiny to a Labour Govt as was applied to the last Tory administration?

196 replies

Axelfoleyreturns · 05/07/2024 12:02

As someone who lived through the Blair years it was not a nirvana.

There was a similar amount of cronyism in play, cabinet members who had an odd relationship with the truth (looking at Peter Mandelson here - who was reappointed despite being proven to be very untrustworthy ) and not to mention going to war based upon a document of fiction. Unchecked power, regardless of which party is in charge is never satisfactory.

And at the end of the last Labour reign there was no money left, no bankers held accountable for their stupidity because of Blair’s pandering to the city with ‘light-touch legislation’ (indeed we actually paid them and helped them save themselves) and having handed the keys to the economy to the Bank of England, no gold left because the chancellor had sold it all, and a legacy of funding facilitated by kicking the can down the road for hospitals schools in various guises including PFI. So when there are comments about austerity, the lack of access to benefits including child benefit being limited to 2 children, the closure of sure start centres and a lack of funding for councils we need to remind ourselves how this position of austerity arose - and it is not the sole fault of the Tories as much as we’d love to think. The Tories didn’t introduce tuition fees or open the borders to East Europe - a decision that cost a lot of existing UK skilled workers their jobs. Neither did they stop right to buy or build any significant amount of social housing. Blair left office and promptly became the richest ex-prime minister we’ve ever had and now heads ‘The Tony Blair Institute’ which employs more than 600 people. At least Gordon Brown had the decency to stick to his principles and seems to have lived those principles.

And before a whole load of people post GDP growth etc under the Blair years consider the impact that the world economy has had in that time. Personally I was the richest I ever was under Blair - he was cautious on taxation and I even received child benefit despite being a high earner. No one considered if this was fair under Labour - but was one of the first things to go under the Tory coalition. Maybe had Labour considered this years before it wouldn’t have been necessary to penalise the less well off or limit that benefit to 2 children. They could have introduced that change and lost no votes. No Labour administration at the time wanted to or even attempted to make ‘the rich pay’. There were many, many missed opportunities.

My point is this - scrutiny is now more important than ever as decisions are taken that affect all parts of society. Women’s rights being a key issue. Moving forward and regardless of your politics, be that person who speaks up and continues applying the same pressure for transparency and accountability as was demanded of the last administration. Labour has one chance to get this right before they lose momentum and before the county lurches to the right again.

OP posts:
Papyrophile · 07/07/2024 12:04

RedToothBrush · 07/07/2024 10:09

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/milburn-nhs-and-britains-revolving-door/

Looks like the return of Alan Milburn isn't exactly going down well.... And has been noticed by those (checks notes) 'very right wing people' at Open Democracy.

That article was published in May 2013. Have I missed more recent comments?

HebburnPokemon · 07/07/2024 12:09

ll09sm · 05/07/2024 13:31

Labour are about to mess up the economy even more than it has been done by the Tories. But hey it’s ok, since they’ll be giving more handouts and freebies, it’s all good.

MN will be happy

Wow some crystal ball you have there

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 12:09

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 12:03

Really? There are a few Nobel winning economists who say you're wrong as well as the actual evidence of where we are now.

What do you think we did after WWII? The actual fantasy is to think that you can have a thriving economy without investing in the areas that drive it; education, healthcare, infrastructure etc. These are areas that more than pay back their investment (eg £3 back for every £1 spent on education)

Okay, let's imagine if we had simply maintained our levels of spending before covid struck. The NHS would have been better placed to cope, the 300,000 excess deaths attributed to austerity would have come off a death toll already reduced by having a healthier population and, if we'd used some fiscal stimulus (like the US did) our economy wouldn't have taken a further hit.

You could do with reading some Stiglitz or Amaratya Seng or Krugman instead of swallowing failed neoliberal orthodoxy.

We spent billions and billions on covid, both in medical spending and economic support like furlough. And the left has been criticising the Tories for a bad economy ever since.

I think you’d do well to read less left-wing economic analysis - none of which has any worthwhile evidence for it - and more of the media.

The ‘fewer deaths’ is particularly foolish.

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 12:44

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 12:09

We spent billions and billions on covid, both in medical spending and economic support like furlough. And the left has been criticising the Tories for a bad economy ever since.

I think you’d do well to read less left-wing economic analysis - none of which has any worthwhile evidence for it - and more of the media.

The ‘fewer deaths’ is particularly foolish.

Spending on covid in the UK wasn't the same as the 5 trillion dollar fiscal stimulus in the US though. It's a completely different policy addressing different concerns.

As for evidence, we've seen how the UK transformed after WWII, with a huge programme of public spending; creating the NHS, the Welfare State, building social housing etc. Compare that to how austerity has simply entrenched the problems we have; high taxes and poorer public services, a collapsing NHS & education system etc

If your conclusion is that it's a policy that's working then fine, you're not going to be convinced by anything like evidence.

300,000 excess deaths in the UK have been independently linked to austerity economics, you can stick your fingers in your ears all you like, but it's pretty clear.

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 12:47

300,000 excess deaths in the UK have been independently linked to austerity economics, you can stick your fingers in your ears all you like, but it's pretty clear.

I’m genuinely interested in this. Do you have a link?

MasterBeth · 07/07/2024 13:02

FinalCeleryScheme · 05/07/2024 12:16

Rubbish. Of course we had to cut spending. Imagine the state of the public finances if we’d carried on building an ever more massive debt and then covid had struck…

The ‘you can always spend as you wish’ people on here are live in a fantastical - and childish - wonderland.

Other Western nations' response to the global financial crisis wasn't austerity. The US, for example, invested under Obama in order to grow out of the crisis. Ironically, the era of cheap money (long term interest rates for governments barely above 0%) made austerity the very worst political choice.

Many of our productivity issues now - the fact that trains, roads, the NHS etc don't work efficiently - are a result of those decisions. Austerity has led to sluggish growth compared to our competitors.

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 13:54

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 11:22

Oddly enough, the day before yesterday. It was very efficient.

Do you not remember how fucking terrible BT was before privatisation?

No. I don't really. It was a ridiculous decision, just as the country needed its technology upgraded for the internet, to leave it up to private companies. I said so at the time, we were passing up the chance to have a global advantage over the rest of the world.

In fact, most of those stupid decisions resulted in Blair hitting those private giveaways with a windfall tax, as they'd been so clearly undersold, to fund his spending on sure start.

Zonder · 07/07/2024 13:56

Frankly I think the truth is the Tory government weren't scrutinised enough. They literally got away with murder. Allegedly.

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 13:57

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 13:54

No. I don't really. It was a ridiculous decision, just as the country needed its technology upgraded for the internet, to leave it up to private companies. I said so at the time, we were passing up the chance to have a global advantage over the rest of the world.

In fact, most of those stupid decisions resulted in Blair hitting those private giveaways with a windfall tax, as they'd been so clearly undersold, to fund his spending on sure start.

If you don’t remember you must have amnesia or be too young to know.

Blair’s windfall tax was just a smash and grab. All politicians do it. It’s not evidence of anything.

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 14:03

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 13:57

If you don’t remember you must have amnesia or be too young to know.

Blair’s windfall tax was just a smash and grab. All politicians do it. It’s not evidence of anything.

It was because companies that had been in public ownership were gifted into private hands at well below their value. A pattern of moving public assets into private hands which has continued since Thatcher, under successive governments.

Were you still reading comics then?

Pandadunks · 07/07/2024 14:05

LlynTegid · 05/07/2024 16:27

I'm happy to apply the same scrutiny and standards as I did to the Tory administration. I don't think the press will think the same as me though.

Absolutely.

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 14:13

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 14:03

It was because companies that had been in public ownership were gifted into private hands at well below their value. A pattern of moving public assets into private hands which has continued since Thatcher, under successive governments.

Were you still reading comics then?

I suspect you’re not old enough to remember BT before privatisation. And were probably barely an adult when Blair got in.

If you seriously think BT was better in public hands - never mind the monopoly market (excepting Kingston Communications 🙄) - I can’t help you with that sort of delusion.

Papyrophile · 07/07/2024 16:19

I look forward to the renewed delights of British Rail. not. And I don't want the GPO telephony system restored either. I went to the USA in 1980 at 24, and discovering that utilities could be responsive customer friendly organisations, designed to serve their customer's needs, was a revelation.

Hatfullofwillow · 08/07/2024 00:25

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 14:13

I suspect you’re not old enough to remember BT before privatisation. And were probably barely an adult when Blair got in.

If you seriously think BT was better in public hands - never mind the monopoly market (excepting Kingston Communications 🙄) - I can’t help you with that sort of delusion.

Unsurprisingly, you're wrong on all counts. There was no material difference in terms of profits, productivity or performance after privatisation, but those profits went into private rather than public hands. As the flagship privatisation model of Thatcher it's been studied quite a bit. We also missed the opportunity to cable the UK with a Nationally funded & coordinated scheme which would have put us well out in front of our competitors. A proposal a lot of us were calling for at the time.

FinalCeleryScheme · 08/07/2024 00:29

Hatfullofwillow · 08/07/2024 00:25

Unsurprisingly, you're wrong on all counts. There was no material difference in terms of profits, productivity or performance after privatisation, but those profits went into private rather than public hands. As the flagship privatisation model of Thatcher it's been studied quite a bit. We also missed the opportunity to cable the UK with a Nationally funded & coordinated scheme which would have put us well out in front of our competitors. A proposal a lot of us were calling for at the time.

Having worked in the telecoms and cable industry (not for BT) I can tell you that’s pure bullshit.

FinalCeleryScheme · 08/07/2024 01:00

That report and the UCL report before it seem to have been widely doubted by other academics.

Hatfullofwillow · 08/07/2024 01:44

FinalCeleryScheme · 08/07/2024 00:29

Having worked in the telecoms and cable industry (not for BT) I can tell you that’s pure bullshit.

Having looked at the accounts between up until 1991 I can assure you it isn't.

FinalCeleryScheme · 08/07/2024 02:06

Hatfullofwillow · 08/07/2024 01:44

Having looked at the accounts between up until 1991 I can assure you it isn't.

I was actually talking about state-backed cable.

As for BT’s efficiency, innovation and profits, how could you possibly know how a nationalised industry would have behaved and changed (or not) over decades? You’ve already said you don’t know how appalling the service was before privatisation.

FinalCeleryScheme · 08/07/2024 02:13

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-austerity-kill-120000-people

There’s an Adam Smith article shooting down the Glasgow study, but I can’t be arsed to link.

These studies are all unsubstantiable conjecture. And none of them even begins to consider the health effects of national bankruptcy.

FactCheck: did austerity kill 120,000 people?

That was the claim shared by Jeremy Corbyn — but is it true?

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-austerity-kill-120000-people

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