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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To remind everyone after the celebrations subside to apply the same level of scrutiny to a Labour Govt as was applied to the last Tory administration?

196 replies

Axelfoleyreturns · 05/07/2024 12:02

As someone who lived through the Blair years it was not a nirvana.

There was a similar amount of cronyism in play, cabinet members who had an odd relationship with the truth (looking at Peter Mandelson here - who was reappointed despite being proven to be very untrustworthy ) and not to mention going to war based upon a document of fiction. Unchecked power, regardless of which party is in charge is never satisfactory.

And at the end of the last Labour reign there was no money left, no bankers held accountable for their stupidity because of Blair’s pandering to the city with ‘light-touch legislation’ (indeed we actually paid them and helped them save themselves) and having handed the keys to the economy to the Bank of England, no gold left because the chancellor had sold it all, and a legacy of funding facilitated by kicking the can down the road for hospitals schools in various guises including PFI. So when there are comments about austerity, the lack of access to benefits including child benefit being limited to 2 children, the closure of sure start centres and a lack of funding for councils we need to remind ourselves how this position of austerity arose - and it is not the sole fault of the Tories as much as we’d love to think. The Tories didn’t introduce tuition fees or open the borders to East Europe - a decision that cost a lot of existing UK skilled workers their jobs. Neither did they stop right to buy or build any significant amount of social housing. Blair left office and promptly became the richest ex-prime minister we’ve ever had and now heads ‘The Tony Blair Institute’ which employs more than 600 people. At least Gordon Brown had the decency to stick to his principles and seems to have lived those principles.

And before a whole load of people post GDP growth etc under the Blair years consider the impact that the world economy has had in that time. Personally I was the richest I ever was under Blair - he was cautious on taxation and I even received child benefit despite being a high earner. No one considered if this was fair under Labour - but was one of the first things to go under the Tory coalition. Maybe had Labour considered this years before it wouldn’t have been necessary to penalise the less well off or limit that benefit to 2 children. They could have introduced that change and lost no votes. No Labour administration at the time wanted to or even attempted to make ‘the rich pay’. There were many, many missed opportunities.

My point is this - scrutiny is now more important than ever as decisions are taken that affect all parts of society. Women’s rights being a key issue. Moving forward and regardless of your politics, be that person who speaks up and continues applying the same pressure for transparency and accountability as was demanded of the last administration. Labour has one chance to get this right before they lose momentum and before the county lurches to the right again.

OP posts:
Nat6999 · 06/07/2024 04:31

lovelysunshine22 · 05/07/2024 16:16

Are those that are saying the Blair government did a lot of good delusional? That's when the rot started to set in and this country started to decline! They were responsible for the millions who think living on benefits is a lifestyle choice!

So, having the lowest waiting lists for the NHS & the highest patient satisfaction didn't happen? The Surestart centres, tax credits, less children living in poverty, no foodbanks, schools maintained, higher standards in education. Tax credits were mainly paid to people in employment, not people using benefits as a lifestyle choice. I would rather live through the 13 years Labour were in power again than the last 14 years with the shitshow we have just had.

FinalCeleryScheme · 06/07/2024 07:22

TheCompactPussycat · 05/07/2024 22:56

Oh dear! There's no need to be flouncing off over it!

It isn't hard to find analysts with less biased agendas or viewpoints and it is unfortunate that you didn't consider that to be important when looking for sources to counter someone's argument.

FWIW, your Fullfact link was better. It rather diluted your point, but it was a less-biased analysis.

Flounce? Er, no.

The point I made was obvious, I thought. People on here link to reports and commentary all the time. Some comes from government, i.e. civil service, sources like the OBR or the NAO. Lots comes from, for example, NGOs. Objecting to one source on the ground of bias must cover them all, or at least all the non-governmental ones. You can’t have it both ways.

If by ‘dilute’ you mean ‘shows that figures shouldn’t be made up’, I agree with you about Full Fact.

wigywhoo · 06/07/2024 07:29

Well said OP. People have short memories. Look up David Kelly death, youngsters.

AgnesX · 06/07/2024 07:33

Don't you worry. The electorate are going to have their beady eyes firmly on Labour. The days of politicians getting an easy ride are gone, but I think they'll also have the added issue of trying to clean up behind the Tories in the midst of what's nearly a recession.

Scenicgirl · 06/07/2024 07:48

No celebrations from me!
The Tories sold us down the river by abusing their position, constant lies and generally looked after themselves, bleeding this country dry.
Change needed to come as most hardworking people feel despondent, there is concern about the non-British people coming into our country who have nothing to offer and don't intend ever to work and contribute to our society- a real worry!
I don't feel like we have the right party to pull us out of this and I think we will get more of the same from Labour but dressed up differently.
KS's MP's are a disgrace and haven't a clue what to do now they're actually have the power to make a difference and the money will have to come from somewhere so that will be the people paying tax. I also think that women's rights will go backwards and Mumsnetters will be in an uproar over this but don't get me started over the woke nonsense in the NHS (which Labour support) and the poor nurses having to share their changing rooms with men pretending to be women.
There, I've said it, my opinion!

saraclara · 06/07/2024 08:01

To remind everyone after the celebrations subside to apply the same level of scrutiny to a Labour Govt as was applied to the last Tory administration

Why would anyone not? Every government is held to scrutiny. When have the media and the public ever just sat back and said 'whatever'?

Lopine · 06/07/2024 08:26

FinalCeleryScheme · 06/07/2024 07:22

Flounce? Er, no.

The point I made was obvious, I thought. People on here link to reports and commentary all the time. Some comes from government, i.e. civil service, sources like the OBR or the NAO. Lots comes from, for example, NGOs. Objecting to one source on the ground of bias must cover them all, or at least all the non-governmental ones. You can’t have it both ways.

If by ‘dilute’ you mean ‘shows that figures shouldn’t be made up’, I agree with you about Full Fact.

You are a shill. Or else very deluded.

So you are trying to argue that the Liz Truss budget was ok? Or minimise the huge economic damage. Gaslighting those paying additional mortgage payments or struggling to feed their children as a result. Disgusting.

FinalCeleryScheme · 06/07/2024 08:39

You are a fool. Or just mischievous.

No, I thought Truss’s time in no 10 was awful and damaging. I never said otherwise.

You threw around a figure of £30bn ‘spaffed’, so you must believe it and have got it from somewhere. I’ve just pointed out that you’re recycling a load of unjustifiable bollocks.

JanglingJack · 06/07/2024 11:26

Axelfoleyreturns · 05/07/2024 22:06

Debate on the issues/points being discussed on this thread is fair game, but that comment is really offensive.

You may have found it offensive. You posted, you brought up the issue. It's on you to defend your thread.

You should have found it offensive, that was my intent with regard to your posts.

Riversideandrelax · 06/07/2024 22:18

4thJuly2024 · 05/07/2024 22:13

Because they weren't actually voted in, very few people wanted them, just the other votes were spread around, because people couldn't get behind the Tories.

They'll make things bad enough in 4/5 years that people will want them out, badly.

this is the joy of FPTP 🙇🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️

I wouldn't call approx 35% of people, very few! And yes, they were voted in.

StarDolphins · 06/07/2024 22:23

Leniriefenstahl · 05/07/2024 13:46

There’s no money left for freebies and handouts. Tories have spent frittered it. But don’t worry they’re following Tory spending plans.
Have you ever claimed child benefit, sick pay, maternity pay or a pension ?

It’s ok, they’ll borrow it

Riversideandrelax · 06/07/2024 22:23

Axelfoleyreturns · 05/07/2024 22:21

I’m really not. The CTF was designed (and the idea sold to the public) as a mechanism to encourage families to add to it. I know every child got one. My kids got one. I added to it. The govt spent £2bn on the scheme.

Don’t take my word for it, read the NAO report on it.

https://www.nao.org.uk/reports/investigation-into-child-trust-funds/

Do I think the money would’ve been better spent on ensuring that the future of sure start centres in economically deprived areas was secure? I certainly do.

You were the one who said CTFs were only 'taken up' by the MC. The point is no 'taking up' was involved. Every child was given some money - more for those on a low income. It had such a beneficial effect and encouraged families who hadn't saved before to do so.

Children's centres closed because Tory MPs had no understanding whatsoever what they did or how. Pure short sighted ignorance.

DeerOhDear · 06/07/2024 22:33

@Axelfoleyreturns that's v interesting re child trust fund is its saying that many have been abandoned?

RedToothBrush · 07/07/2024 10:09

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/milburn-nhs-and-britains-revolving-door/

Looks like the return of Alan Milburn isn't exactly going down well.... And has been noticed by those (checks notes) 'very right wing people' at Open Democracy.

FTPM1980 · 07/07/2024 10:13

I doubt any labour voter would want anything less...scrutiny of the Tories has been dismal.
Every politician should be scrutinised....but fairly

Rainbowsponge · 07/07/2024 10:16

YANBU. Initial disclosure, I voted Lib Dem purely because I’m a strong supporter of the EU and want us back in.

However -

I think the Tories were so awful they created a kind of subculture of people who created an entire identity and mindset around disliking them, to the extent I think they’ll now be kind of politically lost without their bogeyman. I have a handful of friend and colleagues whose entire online presence was #fuckthetories #GTTO, and they seemed to really enjoy the approval and validation they got from people liking their posts and the feeling of righteousness.

Now they’ve been deprived of that I almost feel like they’re going to slip into apathy, there won’t be the same admiration from their peers for critiquing labour so they’ll just have to stay silent.

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 10:29

FTPM1980 · 07/07/2024 10:13

I doubt any labour voter would want anything less...scrutiny of the Tories has been dismal.
Every politician should be scrutinised....but fairly

I really think that’s wrong. Not only has MSM - especially the BBC - been all over the Tories, but social media has been dominated by the left and the ‘lawfare’ that grew up with GLP, that strange Ball chap and god knows how many other crowdfunding wasters has been relentless.

I suspect that many on here treat the Daily Mail as the only medium they’re (negatively) aware of.

Ramblingnamechanger · 07/07/2024 10:46

Privatisation and Brexit have not been a success. Reverse these and things will improve.

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 11:03

Ramblingnamechanger · 07/07/2024 10:46

Privatisation and Brexit have not been a success. Reverse these and things will improve.

Privatisation of what hasn’t been a success? BP? BT? BA? British Gas?

Water privatisation has generally worked. Nobody ever properly compares the situation pre- and post-privatisation. Plenty of sewage was pumped into rivers and the sea when water was publicly owned. The infrastructure is greatly improved - water bills have gone up because they reflect what governments wouldn’t spend.

The railways is more debatable, but I will laugh (and cry) if we end up with ‘70s style BR.

As for reversing Brexit, good luck with that.

LlynTegid · 07/07/2024 11:20

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 11:03

Privatisation of what hasn’t been a success? BP? BT? BA? British Gas?

Water privatisation has generally worked. Nobody ever properly compares the situation pre- and post-privatisation. Plenty of sewage was pumped into rivers and the sea when water was publicly owned. The infrastructure is greatly improved - water bills have gone up because they reflect what governments wouldn’t spend.

The railways is more debatable, but I will laugh (and cry) if we end up with ‘70s style BR.

As for reversing Brexit, good luck with that.

Have you ever tried to deal with BT (or Openreach)? Analogue 'service' in a digital world, the biggest obstacle to business there is.

FinalCeleryScheme · 07/07/2024 11:22

LlynTegid · 07/07/2024 11:20

Have you ever tried to deal with BT (or Openreach)? Analogue 'service' in a digital world, the biggest obstacle to business there is.

Oddly enough, the day before yesterday. It was very efficient.

Do you not remember how fucking terrible BT was before privatisation?

US2gether · 07/07/2024 11:39

FTPM1980 · 07/07/2024 10:13

I doubt any labour voter would want anything less...scrutiny of the Tories has been dismal.
Every politician should be scrutinised....but fairly

This. I think the last Tory government didn't have enough scrutiny. They did alsorts and didn't come out until the end. So much sleeze etc.
Party gate
Contracts for mates worth billions
Lies
Betting scandal insider trading implications

NoWordForFluffy · 07/07/2024 11:59

Riversideandrelax · 06/07/2024 22:18

I wouldn't call approx 35% of people, very few! And yes, they were voted in.

35% if the 60% who voted = about 21% of the electorate (if my maths holds up!).

SerendipityJane · 07/07/2024 12:00

Just for posterity, totally agree 100%. All governments need to be held to account.

Hatfullofwillow · 07/07/2024 12:03

FinalCeleryScheme · 05/07/2024 12:16

Rubbish. Of course we had to cut spending. Imagine the state of the public finances if we’d carried on building an ever more massive debt and then covid had struck…

The ‘you can always spend as you wish’ people on here are live in a fantastical - and childish - wonderland.

Really? There are a few Nobel winning economists who say you're wrong as well as the actual evidence of where we are now.

What do you think we did after WWII? The actual fantasy is to think that you can have a thriving economy without investing in the areas that drive it; education, healthcare, infrastructure etc. These are areas that more than pay back their investment (eg £3 back for every £1 spent on education)

Okay, let's imagine if we had simply maintained our levels of spending before covid struck. The NHS would have been better placed to cope, the 300,000 excess deaths attributed to austerity would have come off a death toll already reduced by having a healthier population and, if we'd used some fiscal stimulus (like the US did) our economy wouldn't have taken a further hit.

You could do with reading some Stiglitz or Amaratya Seng or Krugman instead of swallowing failed neoliberal orthodoxy.

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