Don't vote reform

[Crispynoodle]

Obviously I can't tell you who to vote for but then there is this:

news.sky.com/story/second-reform-candidate-quits-and-backs-tories-over-racism-and-misogyny-13162247

The thing is, there are plenty of people on the sharp end of Tory austerity who are really struggling but don't look for the simple scapegoats that Farage offers.

Those who are not racist tend to come up with a very different set of explanations as to why they're struggling and what needs to change. I hope that the new Labour government listens to them.

I should add, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a sensible debate about immigration either, and how best to manage it. I think that's needed, but I don't think that the racists have anything useful to contribute to that conversation.

I'd like it if I had someone from Reform knock on my door - haven't seen hide nor hair of anyone from any party here, it's a Labour safe seat so I assume nobody can be arsed - but I have a lot of questions I'd like to ask them.

Not that I'd ever vote for them. Maybe not everyone who is planning to vote for them is racist, but they have many racist supporters - some of which would probably have half the country deported as not being properly British.

Thanks and it is.
My mother, who grew up during the German occupation and watched her father being arrested by the SS and dragged away, is terrified. She is 87.

It is very clear that they are generally motivated by racism and xenophobia. Few will openly admit to that, but it oozes out from everything that they do say. I've heard enough, I'm not interested any more. I don't want to give racists the time of day and I'm not interested in what they have to say. I do absolutely listen to the many people I encounter who are struggling but don't look to scapegoat immigrants for their troubles

I am sorry, but all this oozes that you are not listening. You clearly believe that immigration causes no issues for anyone, and anyone who says anything other is clearly a racist, but just trying to hide it, and you should stop listening to them.

There are people, like me, for whom immigration is nothing but a boon. The immigrants in my area talk fluent English, have professional jobs like me, delis and restaurants open, result!

However, for other people, immigration directly takes money from them by undercutting wages. For example, when I got my flat painted I got several quotes. The polish guy was one third the price of the local 'native' guys. Lots of trade freelancers have this issue. Its not scapegoating or racist for people facing such substantial loss of income and trade to be pissed by this and to see immigration as a problem. Because it very much is for them. My Polish neighbour when to work in school in deprived area of our city. She came back absolutely shocked by the number of Polish kids in the class who could not speak any English and said the teachers could not teach because of this. These are schools and pupils already facing substantial obstacles and challenges to success. Its not scapegoating or racist to acknowledge the problems immigration has caused in these areas.

I am really sick of people who only experience the boon of immigration slagging those who actually face the real life challenges it has caused for them, their families and their services. Deriding this as ' scapegoating' is really quite offensive.

I am voting reform and so are loads of people I know.

Labour won't do anything differently to the Tories, we need change 👍

Reform is a terrible party for women to vote for, they’re planning to axe the Equality Act and leave the ECHR. Who’s got your back when it comes to equal pay and opportunities now ?

They also plan to scale back renewable energy in order to leave us with profiteering extortionate oil & gas companies holding us to ransom.

As to accusations of racism:

They certainly seem to attract a certain kind of person

Given some of the rhetoric I've heard from Austria and the AfD, never mind what's going on in France, your poor mother must be so worried. People can't seem to see that Le Pen has simply sanitised the party; they're still fascists. Macron is taking a big gamble.

I think this is probably nearer the truth than some PP labelling everyone who votes for them as necessarily racist. People vote for all sorts of reasons. Immigration needs a serious approach and probably a cross-party solution.

My main concern with Reform is that it probably attracts some unsavory types although I dont think there are as many of them as there used to be. I remember the race riots of the 80s but hope we are well past that these days

I've already said above that I think there is a need for a sensible conversation about immigration and how we should best manage that. I haven't said anywhere that immigration causes no issues for anyone.

What I said was that I have no interest in hearing what racists have to say about immigration. It is perfectly possible to express concern about immigration without buying into racist rhetoric. I would prefer to listen to people who are capable of doing that rather than the rabid Reform types.

We need a fair few to vote for reform - as tactical voting it could reduce the Tory vote and get rid of some of the current shower (Jacob Rees mogg etc)

Ress Mogg was bleating on about building a wall in the channel to keep out foreigners.

Yeah I don't mean I hope Labour takes racist viewpoints into account! I just hope they do look at what the issues are and hopefully take steps to address them, undo some of the Tory cuts, clear the asylum backlog so there aren't large numbers of unemployed young men housed together in unsuitable accommodation etc. It would be nice not to head the way of some of our European neighbours, I hate this rise of support for the far right.

Same with the gender thing. Reform are spewing out a black and white view but you know underneath it are misogynistic and homophobic views. If Labour can actually get to grips with the actual issue and give some clear answers or solutions that would be really helpful...

I guess a lot of people get so frustrated with an issue and then see this one party giving what seems to be a straight answer and they think, that party understands and has my interests at heart.

They don't though. Nuance is really important, as is care for the vulnerable. Reform have neither. They'd be a fucking disaster for this country.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. The underlying issues that make some people turn to parties like Reform absolutely need to be addressed. I just don't think we need the voices of those racist voters in the room. There are plenty of other people who understand the issues and have first hand experience of them. They're the ones that should be listened to. The racists need to be marginalised and ignored as much as possible.

Unlike one of his predecessors (Winston Churchill) I don't think he has done any bricklaying

Yes, please do all go and vote for reform tomorrow ☺️

Even ignoring the racism for a moment, along with the absence of an explanation from Reform how they would stop our pension system from collapsing if they cut immigration to net zero...

Farage is the guy who told us Brexit would be a success.

He's the guy that celebrated Liz Truss's budget.

I just cannot understand how people continue to think he has a shred of credibility. Everything he champions just makes the country and it's people poorer.

Reform aren't completely barking,they U turned on net zero immigration. They're now promising to cut 'non essential' immigration. Whatever that means.

🤭

I do believe that there are many people who just cannot accept there are people who have right wing opinions. Just as the left have far left to centre left and everything in between, so do the right but the lead up to this election is very much cementing the view that anything right is wrong. The way to deal with those opinions is to insult and label.

There could be a party with a very similar manifesto to Reform, but not having Farage involved - what would the response be from the non-right people? Would it be the same response because the opinions are right, or would it be different because Farage would not be involved? The same could be said of Le Pen in France, and Trump in America.

This.
People who vote Reform either don't know anything about history, are incredibly naive or they are extremely right wing and everything else that entails.

Didn't Trump lock up immigrants in cages on the US border and encourage an insurrection? Are you sure you want to align him with Reform? Even though Farage is one of his biggest fans.

No one is talking about right wing views. They're concerned about blatant racism that they're hearing from Reform candidates.

The response would be the same?

I've read their manifesto. Their policies are far right policies.

They've smeared themselves by spouting out a load of racist bile.

How many candidates have they lost in the past few days due to racism? I think it's seven! (Two who left because they object to all the racism still remaining!)

The trouble is that "right wing" has been conflated to mean anything from a belief in choice regarding education to a belief in an ultra nationalistic dictatorship. "Facist" is used by the left to describe most things right of centre so has lost its real scary meaning. Which means we have lost the language to describe and therefore be able to judge things that are actually really scary. How can you now describe a real "facist" if you meet one if you are called a facist for thinking Winston Churchill was a good guy.

Some concerns about migration are racist and some aren't.

But to be honest the non-racist concerns I hear are generally not backed up by the data. These are from people not understanding the root cause of pressure on public services, and thinking that it's due to migration. Which it's not.

Migration is fundamentally relieving pressure on public services because a very large portion is going into the NHS and care sector. Migrants are majority working age so use less free education, healthcare, pensions and pay more taxes than the general population. UK has a falling birthrate and increased older population - this again is increasing pressure on public services. These are just facts.

Local services are poor because government has cut funding to councils by 50%.

This is why public services are poor - it's got nothing to do with migration - in fact migration is significantly helping.

Record migration last year was driven by increased workers in health and care, and more international students whose fees are propping up our universities and cross subsiding our university students. Look at the data.

Can I ask about you/your friends - what do you think of the above information? Was it impact on public services that you were worried about and does this change your mind?
Was it the 'record' numbers which is actually driven by increased health and care workers and university students - and does this still worry you knowing what these figures are made up from? If so what is worrying you?

I am genuinely really keen to understand the non-racist reasons why people are concerned about current migration and think it's a bigger issue than cost of living, the NHS, climate change. Please do let me know - maybe there's something I've missed?