Don't vote reform

[Crispynoodle]

Obviously I can't tell you who to vote for but then there is this:

news.sky.com/story/second-reform-candidate-quits-and-backs-tories-over-racism-and-misogyny-13162247

Apologies to the poster who spotted Hamlet first (I hadn't read the thread) but it struck me immediately 😂

The thing is though, these are big issues for you and some who are going to vote for Reform but they are not categorically the ‘issues’ that need addressing- you forgot to add, in your opinion. I am a voter to and they are not my main concerns at all, pretty arrogant to assume your concerns are those of the nation. What I can’t abide with this viewpoint, demonstrated at its worst in your last paragraph, is this entitlement, your entitled to being listened to, to be understood, more than any others with different points of view and it’s all the other voters jobs to do this- can I ask why? This is like suggesting that those who vote for Reform need to stop calling those of us that don’t, leftie Wokes, they need to engage in discussions about what is important to us, listen to what we are saying about Economic Growth, listen to our concerns about preserving freedom and democracy, listen to our concerns about Climate change etc. whatever the concerns of people voting for different parties are but do Reform Voters think they are the only ones entitled to this special treatment, this accommodation of their feelings. Sorry but who the heck do you think you are!

The only good thing about Reform is that it’ll pick up all the idiotic or particularly bigoted disillusioned Tory voters, thus splitting it and weakening both party’s results.

Hit a nerve?

Quite the rant. Just to chip in, immigration is, I think, in the top 3 of voter concerns. It hasn't been properly addressed or discussed until recently as anyone who raised the issue was tarred as a racist. There's more of a discussion now as politicians realise it is high on the list across the board..left to right and is very much a Red Wall issue so both old Labour and new (soon to be ex) Tory voters.

pretty arrogant to assume your concerns are those of the nation

Brexit showed they are..

they need to engage in discussions about what is important to us, listen to what we are saying about Economic Growth, listen to our concerns about preserving freedom and democracy, listen to our concerns about Climate change etc. whatever the concerns of people voting for different parties are

These issues ARE being talked about. No one is dismissing these topics.

but do Reform Voters think they are the only ones entitled to this special treatment, this accommodation of their feelings.

No one thinks this at all, Reform voters just want the illigal immigration issues addressed, discussed, resolutions found, rather than being dismissed and instantly shouted down as racist for bringing it up.

Not confused at all.

I'm going on your comments to other posters and referencing the fact you seem focused on immigration 'details' - who wants to do this' and 'who should do that' eg:

Most of those who enter the country "illegally" end up claiming asylum. (And most are granted it because their claims are seemed to be valid.) Most want to work but can't because they are not legally permitted to do so - we could allow them to work and pay taxes while waiting for their claims to be assessed, but we choose not to. Most do work and contribute if and when they are granted refugee status. It isn't their fault that the home office takes forever to process their applications.

None of that, however well-meaning, has anything to do with the hard question of numbers (Which I've now asked twice!). So I'll go for (hopefully) third time lucky:
'The UK is overpopulated. How do you suggest we reduce numbers?'

This! I can work out why people can't/won't understand this.

Farage is a vile hypocrite.

He deliberately targets the very worst sentiments in society. He cynically appeals to the most dispossessed, who just want something / someone to blame, as well as people who are xenophobes and particularly unpleasant.

If all the constituencies he could stand in - he chooses Clacton. A place he would never touch with a barge pole otherwise.

In the same way as Hitler rose to power in an economically shattered Germany by promising to make Germany great again and blaming ‘others’ (ie the Jews), this is exactly the tactic Farage takes. He He is a nasty, cynical piece of work and he knows it.

All this ‘man of the people’ malarkey - he was educated at Dulwich College. I know one of his kids is (was) at a particular boarding school because I know someone who was at that school. Yet, people think that his photo ops, with a pint in a pub, make him ‘one of the people.’ What does he know about poverty or poor education.

He was almost expelled from his public school for expressing fascist ideology.

This man made his whole adult life had been agitating for Brexit. What does he do the day after the vote? RESIGN!

Since then he has wittered on and on about how govts have not done Brexit right. But what did he do to show us the great benefits of this Brexit he campaigned (lied) for - NOTHING.

Does he not see the irony of going to the D-Day memorial when he is, in 2024, forming a political party that the Nazis would approve of?

He is disgusting.

Just what I was going to say. Nobody responds well to moralistic lecturing and it's only like to make even more people vote reform. I don't want reform to be the opposition but we have to respect the process.

Oh stop exaggerating. This is not Nazi Germany and you sound like you are in the lower 6th taking alevel politics and destined sadly for a D

This is a good example of where any nuance of debate has been lost. It is perfectly possible to not support something but understand why others do. The people not listening are the ones causing these problems.

I heard the most shocking racism I've heard in a very long time on Saturday. I mean blatant, outright offensive racism using the 'n' word and referring to 'darkies'. Don't get me wrong, I know this happens and in my white, middle class privilege I am protected from it, but still the openness of it really upset me and made me think about how far we've fallen again as a society. I can't help but think racists, homophobes, misogynists etc have been buoyed by UK politics in recent years, they've become much more brazen. Sure, it's a democracy and yes, people are free to vote as they choose. Hitler, too, rose to his position via democratic means. It gives me the shivers if I'm honest.

My post had everything to do with "numbers".

You claimed to be worried about "illegal immigration" only, but you are simultaneously expressing concerns about "numbers".

I pointed out that "illegal migration" accounts for a tiny proportion of the overall numbers. You have not responded to this point.

In response to your question, setting aside the question of whether the UK is actually overpopulated or not, if people wish to see a significant reduction in numbers, then it will be necessary to focus on legal migration which forms the bulk of current immigration to this country. I would ask you which categories of legal migration you would like to reduce, but you said above that you don't have any concerns about that.

Even if we managed to completely eliminate all "illegal migration" - and it's highly unlikely that any party would succeed in doing this without exception - you would be talking about a very modest reduction to the overall number of people coming into the country. So I can't really understand your claim to be concerned primarily with the "numbers" while simultaneously saying that you're only concerned with those entering via "illegal routes". Unless, of course, like many people, you are ill-informed about the numbers of people entering the country "illegally" and assume that it's a much higher proportion of total immigration than it actually is?

You echo my sentiments entirely. Every. Single. Word. 👏👏

There are racists, yes, but racist language is not something that has suddenly become socially acceptable across the UK in the way anti semitism in 1930s Germany was.

Reform have done well in the polls because they appear to be speaking for people concerned about high levels of immigration which has not been covered (until recently) by the two main parties. In fact Labour want to increase it. These people are generally not racists (although some will be).

Reform is entirely the fault of the Conservatives and Labour not speaking about or dealing with immigration, the third top issue in the country. To get your knickers in a twist about m Hitler is to entirely miss the point. I'd be more concerned if there was no Reform which is a legal democratic way for people to express their views. If they didn't exist and the main parties continued to ignore people's concerns there may well start to be a bit of trouble.

I beg to differ - pretty sure @LadyCrumpet echoes the sentiments an overwhelming majority of this country.

It's actually rather arrogant to assume that just because these things don't affect 'you', they don't exist. That is, in my view, why the country is in this mess: people just not listening.

Anyway, no point arguing about it here. I guess we'll find out who's right on Friday morning...

UK is 52nd on the list of countries by population density. When you say we’re overpopulated do you mean physically or economically? You understand that the birthrate is falling and we actually need more people, not less, if our children are ever to have a chance of a state pension, or if we want our economy to grow?

I’d suggest that we’re not overpopulated, but under-resourced. Our population will go through the roof in coming decades as people flee to somewhere with a milder, habitable climate, but Reform totally ignore this and actually plan to actively make the climate problem worse.

Another disgusting example if Farage’s racism was his retort to Laura K when she challenged him on his comment that Sunsk’s early departure from the D Day memorial was evidence that he does not share “our” values.

His way around the racism charge was to point out that many from the Commonwealth fought alongside Britain in the war.

Well that may be so but WTF does that have to do with Sunak who was born in the U.K. and therefore as British as Farage is?!

How dare he.

My husband is of Indian heritage - he is not not a ‘commonwealth person’ who deserves a patronising pay in the back by the likes of Farage. He was born here. He is British.

This is aside from the issue of the an colonised people being required to fight in the side of the coloniser.

I'm not concerned ONLY with those entering illegally. Obviously. Seems to me you're the one that's confused.

Setting aside the question of whether the UK is over populated or not

That's just it, you can't 'set that aside' - that's the fundamental issue: The UK IS overpopulated.

As I said, in an earlier post, I don't care whether people are born here or migrate here. We need to reduce numbers overall. Solve this problem and you'll go some way to solving all the others.

The End.

Wait, wasn't the original premise of Reform (the Brexit Party) that by leaving the EU it would be a silver bullet to solving all of the UK's problems, which all stern from uncontrolled immigration? Well, we've left the EU now and nothing has improved. So was the Brexit Party (I.e. Nigel Farage) wrong that leaving the EU would solve everything? Which is pretty much what he was told at the time, by Remainers on both sides of the political fence. So, now he's standing on a slightly different platform, because he's a self serving opportunist first and foremost.

Also, the old adage remains true: not all Reform voters are racist. But all racists will vote Reform. People intending to vote Reform need to ask themselves whether they're content to lie down with dogs.

Mandatory euthanasia at 70

>> Reduce numbers
>> Cut care costs
>> Cut NHS costs

The End (for some).

so you are using the terms I used to describe the entitlement of the Reform voters - how is it ‘arrogant’ to have different voting priorities? It is arrogant, like i posted above to think that every other voter should persuade you of their way of thinking, why why should I persuade you to vote for another party, I’m not a politician, if you want to vote for your little worries that are just going to make you poorer, go ahead!

Our overall wealth per capita has fallen due to immigration.

Immigrants coming over now are the pensioners and NHS users of tomorrow. I suspect we have too many to handle as it is without bringing more in.

We need to build millions more houses to house the increasing population which is mostly due to immigration. We are a tiny island. I don't want the countryside concreted over to house whoever wants to come and live here. I rather like the British countryside. I also want my kids to have a chance at buying a house one day. I don't want them have to move to another country to do that because the housing stock has been used up by the increase in population from outside the UK

Why do Reform Voters speak like this, they aren’t ‘peoples concerns’ they are some people who vote Reform concerns.