To let you all know :Jane the mntter held keir to acct, brilliantly on radio today and it's viral.

[JaneVapeman]

Unfortunately I can't link to her clip, but she's a star and a hero. She pinned him down and cut through the "twaddle". I am a swing voter and would have been proud of a mntter holding any mp to account on an important issue like Jane did. Jane is/was even trending on twitter.

💥

It completely baffles me why this conversation has become about toilets and changing rooms. It's irrelevant imo. If we are concerned about male violence (And we all should be) then we should be addressing that?

She was an ordinary woman expressing a reasonable and widely held opinion succinctly and clearly, at very short notice and given little time, against a vastly experienced barrister and ex-DPP. She showed him up and called him out on his equivocation and falsity. Well done her. She has made many friends.

Well done Jane.

I have been going round and round with this in my head. I've suffered from DV and friends have had bad experiences with the kind of cross dressing guys who are sexually focussed on women - which is the group that we are all worried about gaining access to young or vulnerable women through single sex spaces. The sloppy language Kier is using gives no indication that he understands the experience of being targeted by someone like this or cares how it affects us.

But on the other hand I've a couple of male friends, and my daughter also has friends in her age group, trying to transition over the last couple of years and they've been tentative and rather sweet and very aware that being a woman is something to aspire to rather than something they can just decide to do. If anything they want to reject male aggression and become better people. One is gay leaning and one has just given up on the idea of being sexual at all for many years, and I really don't think they are a threat. Neither has a girlfriend or children or seeks out children or young women. Of course, that's my judgement and I can't expect other women to accept that.

Would a compromise be that a MtF trans person could access women's spaces if they could find a biological woman to vouch for them and chaperone them until the group felt safe to accept them? There are a lot of women who advocate for trans rights without really thinking it through and they could put their money where their mouth is by being responsible for supervising/mentoring in these environments.

It would be awkward I know and still rely on women's labour to make it work, but crucially those women would have VOLUNTEERED, and they wouldn't have to support anyone they felt was creepy. If the trans person couldn't find anyone to vouch for them even in a pool of people broadly supportive of their rights, they would have to think hard about how they were coming across and the feelings they were raising in people through their presentation and behaviour.

For the women having their safe space invaded, they would be reassured that there would be a witness/adjudicator who would actually as a buffer and remove the person, interact with organisers and the police, before any bad behaviour could take place.

My main worry with MtF people is that they don't really understand what it is to be a woman and try to turn themselves into stereotypes, but how will they learn if we never let them in? I don't think wanting to be a woman is necessarily a bad thing in itself, it's the way trans rights activists have been acting so entitled and aggressive that has worried and upset me. There are a lot of younger, gentler MtF people whose voices aren't being heard because they don't want to associate with the TRA bullies.

I dunno, what do you think? There has to be a way forward that disenfrachises sexual predators without being cruel to people who are harmless and vulnerable themselves.

I think you underestimate the number of women already aware and how careful they have been forced to be about voicing their concerns. Ballot boxes are anonymous and I think there will be a lot of hovering pencils who find it hard to put their cross next to someone who won’t clearly protect their mothers, daughters, wives and friends.

Also, Jane came across as repetitive, rude and interruptive.

Keir said several times he would protect women's spaces.

What about the risk of male violence in single sex spaces being increased due to freely letting males in? Do you not see how the two issues intertwine?

You repeat the question until you receive an answer. It's how you hold someone to account.

Jane has won us many friends. This is national news today.

No she didn’t.

He was terrible and unclear as usual

Using all his big standard bollocks about CPS, Ghey or whatever to override Jane

Patronising too

As Keir kept repeating the same lie the discussion became repetitive.

What does “protect(ing) women’s spaces” mean if you let men in them?

Keir cannot define what a woman is, if he believes being a woman is a spectrum rather than a biological fact how can he truly protect women’s sex based spaces?

Because we're not just concerned about male violence.

We're concerned about women's dignity and privacy too.

But single sex spaces are needed for some women to be able to do their jobs and put food on the table.

Have you seen the coverage of the nurses who are suing their NHS trust for allowing a man who ids as a woman in their changing rooms. Some of the religious women were having to wear two sets of clothing as they cannot get undressed in front of a man making them very hot which is a) religious discrimination and b) suboptimal for them as employees and their patients.

He was making highly inappropriate comments and behaving in an intimidating way yet the NHS trust put his wants to invade a single sex space over the needs, clearly stated, of 26 women nurses, for over a year. I bet some women left their jobs.

Why a third space isn't possible for one person when 26 other members of staff are having their ability to do their jobs undermined by his presence in their changing room I don't know. Way to say 'fuck you, we don't care about how you feel, or your patients, only how this man feels' to those nurses too.

@Perfect28 since Starmer talked about men with GRCs and women’s spaces which ones will allow men with GRCs access?

@LostTheMarble no I think it actually detracts from the point, which is that we need male violence to stop. By saying 'but we can create a few female only 'safe' spaces' implies that male violence is inevitable and all we can do is shield from it.

Furthermore, I don't want men and boys to be the victims of violence either. If the male toilet isn't safe for my female child, then why is it fine for my male child?

We need radical change, beginning earlier with much more overt education. The issue is male violence, not trans people.

The issue is indeed male violence

TW are male

thats why they don’t belong in women’s spaces

Polls in fact suggest that women are likely to vote for Labour in greater numbers than men, quite significantly so in some polls.
Which is why Labour always put women's concerns to the back of the queue - they know that they have the vote whatever they do (or don't do).
Time to wake up, women. Make Labour earn that vote.

Which tax policies are these please? Off the cuff I can't think of any.

You're missing the point, he thinks men can become women 🤦

@Chersfrozenface which means what exactly? If we just want privacy, why not campaign for individual spaces?

And this happened to these nurses under a Tory government yes, no doubt under the management of left leaning 'progressive' (yet simultaneously misogynistic and sexist) management. But if you think it won't get worse under Labour think again.

Those women would probably lose their jobs under Labour.

Goodbye nurses in the NHS.

You also have to question whether this man who is apparently telling everyone he's trying to inseminate his partner (so he does actually know what biological sex he is) is also providing 'care' to women who will be traumatised by a biological male providing care. The NHS trust has shown they give no shits if the majority of their nursing staff feel uncomfortable and unsafe so presumably the same applies to their patients.

That’s the problem. Did he use the words single sex? No. This is why people don’t trust him.

Once again, what is driving this? Why is biological sex not recognised? It would be so sensible and straightforward to define sex as “biological sex” in the Equality Act. But Labour resist this. What’s the agenda? Why does gender trump sex? Why is the vulnerability of transgender people more so than women, children, people with disabilities or women whose religion or culture requires them to have actual single sex spaces? It’s baffling and irrational. A political party so swayed by ideology rooted in unreality is not one that can be trusted.

We’re no idiots, Labour keep very deliberately referring to safe spaces or women’s spaces not single sex spaces

Supporters of women's rights don't talk about "safe spaces" - we want single sex (not single gender) spaces.

Because we care about women's dignity and privacy and their ability to take part in society. It's not just matter of safety.

The people using the weasel phrase "safe spaces" are the people like the Labour party who are intent on barging ahead with gender ideology with no regard for women or children.

Because this isn’t just about violence.

It’s not irrelevant that some girls have been missing school on their periods to avoid gender neutral toilets. Some have been drinking less and holding in urine.
In Scotland, girls have been refusing to use gender neutral toilets in secondary schools.

Some nurses are suing the NHS after being forced to share a changing room with a “trans” colleague who is clear he will not take female hormones and is currently trying to get his gf pregnant, after he stared at them and made inappropriate comments.

On the repetition thing, it’s actually Starmer who does this. It’s very noticeable and been picked up by some media pundits too, like the News Agents podcast I noticed.
For those following along, he’s been repeating the same phrases, quotes, anecdotes about his own past ad infinitum for weeks. No matter the context he just bends the question back to his stock phrases and moves on.
This clearly falls apart when he’s asked a direct question about his own policy and not allowed to stay on autopilot. He can’t do it, he’s utterly inept at applying the rhetoric to real life issues.

As illustrated by Jane not accepting the flannel.