To let you all know :Jane the mntter held keir to acct, brilliantly on radio today and it's viral.

[JaneVapeman]

Unfortunately I can't link to her clip, but she's a star and a hero. She pinned him down and cut through the "twaddle". I am a swing voter and would have been proud of a mntter holding any mp to account on an important issue like Jane did. Jane is/was even trending on twitter.

💥

Utter rubbish.

They're like flat earthers. Absolutely mental.

What about the women ...

A woman is a person...no ?

In prisons, rape counselling, domestic violence shelters, needing single sex care

Yes in all of those space I know currently the Tories have shown us they know what a woman is and don't care one iota, that we are getting raped in hospital,
don't care that we are getting raped in prisons,
they have reduced our funding for domestic abuse counsellors or any councillors for that matter as they don't care,
allow less than 1% of rape cases to get any success at all (but they know we are women so it's ok),,
allow our CAHMS services to be underfunded,
allow our mental health services to be underfunded -
And it's a disgrace, but yes I do believe women (as people) deserve to be treated with dignity and respect in these spaces and arenas.

Where is the dignity and respect for them?
Currently out of the window.

Why can Starmer not say 'of course your need for single sex spaces will be respected?'

I have heard Kier Starmer on more then one occasion say he will protect the safety of biological women in women only spaces.

It was an example of an intervention that can be used to prevent people doing themselves harm. Not a recommendation to use it in every case.

just because you don’t understand something , doesn’t make it delusional. Instead of passing judgement, perhaps try to understand someone else’s experience.

Would be nice if that went both ways and TW tried to understand, respect and honour women's experience.

There are any number of perfectly lucid, perfectly sane, perfectly lovely trans people. They have always been here and (as far as anyone can tell) they always will be. All they need from you is for you to stop standing in judgement of their experience, and just let them be.

There probably are. That should go both ways too, they can stop standing in judgement of women's experiences, just leave women alone, stay out of women's spaces and services, leave our language alone, stop making demands of us and threatening and abusing us when we refuse to comply.

Except "just let them BE" means letting them do whatever it is that they want, isn't it? To access women's single sex spaces and services. It's just another way of saying "be kind, roll over, budge up, shut up".
Fuck that.
You might not care about males in woman's spaces, but there are many many of us who do, and our rights are not yours to hand over. You do realise that ANY man can claim to be trans, yes? ANY man can use our spaces to get close to women ,for ANY reason. And Keir wants to give them a helping hand in.

I have heard Kier Starmer on more then one occasion say he will protect the safety of biological women in women only spaces.

Which means little when his definition of women includes men, and when his proposed policies will make it even more difficult to keep men out of women’s spaces than it is now.

I have heard Kier Starmer on more then one occasion say he will protect the safety of biological women in women only spaces.

But he will not clarify if having a GRC makes one (legally) a 'biological woman'

THAT is the problem

Yes. I really don't care what trans people want to get up to.

I care about women's rights, and children being taught sensible facts.

And it'd be nice if our pending prime minister would actually listen to women, but he seems incapable.

i wish there was some way I could auto hide all threads like this.
They really put me off of MN fora.
I just have nothing in common with the people celebrating Jane.

Sorry but you have done this twice now - it's CAMHS not CAHMS

And Keir not Kier

There are any number of perfectly lucid, perfectly sane, perfectly lovely trans people. They have always been here and (as far as anyone can tell) they always will be. All they need from you is for you to stop standing in judgement of their experience, and just let them be.

I agree that's true and further, these people would not actually want to access women's spaces, knowing the impact this will have on vulnerable women.

These people would be campaigning for third spaces instead

Why comment then? 🫠

Getting to speak to KS about this at all is a major achievement.

He won't even speak to the women in his own party about it. He's been stonewalling (pun intended) them for years and I do mean years.

From the GC point of view the call was a success, I don't think any of us really thought he would answer the question clearly because he hasn't to date, but the publicity around it will put pressure on him.

She didn't tell him what to say she told him what women needed to hear to be reassured he would protect single sex spaces.

It would be nice if KS could acknowledge women deserve dignity and respect but he never seems to place any emphasis on that. He just keeps telling us how marginalised trans people are in the hope he can guilt women into believing it's our problem to solve.

If our legislators want to enshrine the right to a falsified birth certificate in law then they can bloody well sort out the consequences of such a ridiculous position without demanding women make sacrifices to save them having to solve a problem of their own making.

i wish there was some way I could auto hide all threads like this.
They really put me off of MN fora.
I just have nothing in common with the people celebrating Jane.

All I can say is 🤷‍♀️

And yet your fingers seemed to have typed out a response to the thread. How odd.

But the poster brought it up when I asked why it is her business if a transman takes testosterone and has a mastectomy.

If pp is a taxpayer and therefore funding surgery and exogenous hormones it's something one is entitled to question.

The simple observation that people who identify as trans exist is not an ideology.

But physical sex also undeniably exists, and whatever trans people believe about their gender, it is not the same thing as physically being the opposite sex. Obviously.

The ideological aspect is not how trans people feel about themselves. It is the extension of this feeling into the claim firstly that all humans have an innate gender that is separate to their sex, and secondly that it is this inner mental gender that makes one really a man or a woman, and therefore it is this rather than the practicalities and challenges of our physical sex and how society and individuals react to it which is the significant factor in sports, in privacy, in sexuality, in sexual abuse, in VAWG, in sexism and in unconscious bias against women, and that all the protections, rights and opportunities put in place for women are correctly accesible to anyone who simply claims their inner gender is Woman, while physical sex is mostly irrelevant and can be ignored in any context beyond the immediate needs of the body. THAT is the ideology.

The undefining of female reality, the denial of female experiences of sexism within patriarchy and the rebuilding of society to center gender identity is a belief system that goes way way way WAY beyond simply recognising and accepting the existence of trans identifying people.

If TRAs were advocating that trans identifying people be accomodated alongside the reality of sex, without denying women's sex-based oppression and without appropriating women's sex based rights, protections and opportunities, I'd be right there fighting with you.

But promote a regressive, sexist ideology that can look at the history of female lives and tell the bare faced lie that our bodies do not have consequences, that can straight faced claim on the one hand to be somehow "feminist" and on the other believe that men and women just have different types of mind, and that something in a man's mind can be so unmanly he is actually a woman, and try to make us believe that this is challenging the patriarchy? Yeah, I'm never going to think that's ok.

Female people exist in our own right outside the imaginations of men. Our challenges and needs don't go away just because some men see our lives as metaphors or refuges from things they want to reject in themselves.

Any ideology that denies this basic truth is deeply sexist, regressive and patriarchal and we should reject it completely.

I love a shaming drive by scold of an evening.

Bad women, bad, bad women cease and desist immediately.

Nope not what I said.
I didn't want my friends lovely daughter locked up either but it was entirely preferable to her starving herself to death. She believed something untrue and was very unwell as a result. Rather than everyone agreeing with her everyone did all they could to ensure she got better and that did involve psychiatric help.

Why do we try to stop people flinging themselves off high bridges, or pump peoples stomachs when they take overdoses? Fragile or ill people try to hurt themselves all the time, as humans it used to be that we actually cared about people wanting to harm themselves. And all you have to do is look at the many detransitioners to see that many of these people are in the grip of illness or depression or undiagnosed autism or other disorders when they make those decisions to irrevocably harm their bodies.
Or should we simply just them all get on with it?

Like Starmer, you simply can’t bring yourself to listen to women talking.

Having a mastectomy or taking testosterone is not equivalent to starving yourself to death.🙄

Gosh yes, why did I not mention other steps we take such as restricting dangerous substances or outlawing assisted dying?

Oh hand on I did 🙄