To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

[DImplesandCheese]

TLDR: ND child is causing my DC to quit much loved hobby as ND child's behaviour is ruining it for them.

Full Story: DC (13) attended a hobby/club and has done for years. 2 years ago a new child joined. The child is ND and their particular behaviours include shouting out, not listening, inappropriate use of kit and refusal to fully participate in activities. DC has complained on and off since this child joined that it is spoiling it. I have encouraged DC to be understanding and supportive, I have spoken with the staff at the club to ask if more support for this child can be put in place. Nothing has changed.

Part of the club involves some unsupervised time and this is DC's favourite part of the club. The last two unsupervised sessions have been completely ruined by this child's behaviour, the group have had to call staff for help to sort it out and therefore their final result for the session has been effected. 2 months ago after the last ones of these sessions I spoke with staff and asked why this child doesn't have a 1 to 1 support/parent staying with them as this is hugely effecting everyone else's enjoyment and I was told that my DC is exaggerating and 'fixating' on this child.

DC came home last night as said he's quitting. This child has wrecked the night's activity again. I spoke to the staff and was told that they 'are an inclusive club and they pride themselves in being open to all' and hinted that DC leaving may well be for the best if he's not happy.

I have 2 ND DC, I get the difficulties, I get that they should have access to clubs and activities, I get that allowances need to be made for their behaviour. I am in no way suggesting the child should be kicked out but surely if you have children leaving because of another child then the support in place for that child isn't right?

AIBU to think that more should be done to support this child correctly so DC can continue to enjoy their hobby and that my DC having to leave is not an acceptable situation?

Showing your ableism here

This isn't what inclusivity is supposed to be - just including a ND person without any supports and telling everyone else to suck it up because they're ND and can't help it is not inclusive and not helpful to anyone.

The leaders should be trying to resolve it with the kids. Presumably the point of the "staff free activities" is so that children learn to work with each other and develop teamwork skills without an adult looking over their shoulder - that will often work for NT kids, but ND kids often need more help/scaffolding to develop these skills, it's not fair to expect them to do it on their own or through interactions with peers.

I went in as a helper with an activity with my boys both ND, another lad joined and was always first dropped off and last picked up...

He REALLY should have had a 121 with him he needed ALL of my attention purely focused on him to keep him and everyone else safe (his parents would not talk about his SEN needs , them staying or anything but drop off and run- I get parenting ND kids is HARD and they wanted a low cost break but still...)

Which unfortunately ment my boys and all the other children were missing out on all the fun stuff I use to do while I was there as an extra set of hands.

My boys gave it a few weeks and said it wasn't fun anymore and they didn't want to go back, Very sad for everyone really as I had to leave too as no extra childcare, we never found another group where they clicked either :(

Sometimes I think that children are expected to tolerate a lot more than adults in this department, for example in the classroom vs the workplace (unless your workplace is a school!) This has been amply demonstrated on this thread.

How is this ableist?!

If the OP's son quits then it will probably start a flood of others leaving and then the club may need to address what they're ignoring. It's all very well to tick the 'inclusive' box but not if you then do nothing for that child or the others.

We had a similar issue a few years ago…disrupting when the leaders were trying to speak to the group, shouting “I hate you” at the leaders, dangerous behaviours with scissors being used for a craft, etc. The leaders aren’t special needs educators—ours were mostly young-ish volunteers, so it’s not really fair on them, the child with special needs, or the rest of the kids. All in all, not a great experience.

It's not your DCs job to solve the problem. That's down to the club leader and the parents. The parents should stay and keep the child under control

Showing your ableism here

Tick.

Nice try 🤨 OP has two ND children, so is doubtless less 'ableist' than someone who throws the word around for social credits, without showing any understanding of the problem or offering solutions.

There is a trend now that any and all behavior from anyone adult or child with special needs must allowed and accepted cheerfully or it is discrimination and you are a terrible person.

First of all that also fosters a reputation that all person with special needs have behavior problems. This actually leads to sn discrimination. Second of all as parents when our children are not "normal" it's hard to give up the dream as parents we had has to be altered. But to force a child to be in a club they really can't handle, affecting others is not fair to either child.

" " We had exactly this sort of situation when I was in brownies nearly 40 years ago. I left..."
Bit ableist, no?"

She was in brownies, no?
Which is for children 7-10 years old, no?
Bit mean to label a 1980s primary school girl "ableist" for quietly leaving a group instead of suddenly developing the skills of a 21st century SEND support worker to manage the behaviour of another child such that everyone has a great time or to just put up with having a crap time every week, no?

I haven’t seen any mention of dangerous behaviours here. I agree if there is challenging behaviour then 1:1 is needed to safeguard everyone though.

@crazyBadger This sounds like a similar situation, the parents are using the activity as much-needed respite, but the problem is that the leadership isn’t stepping in to provide the support that their child needs. So it’s not working for the participants.

I think looking into Explorer Scouts might be a good idea. OP.

I have 2 ND kids myself and I couldn't agree with you more, not having the right support in place is as damaging for the ND child as it is for everyone else 🤷‍♀️

I know this isn’t a factor for OP’s child, but I do wonder what the leaders would do if a child couldn’t tolerate noise / disruption / shouting from an ND child because they themselves are ND.

Well i'm no expert on this and dont have any links, but here goes. The brain is organised differently to neurotypical people. This can affect people in different ways at different levels of severity. It can affect how you process sensory information, including language, affect executive function and reading social cues/information. It can affect your attention and impulse control.

It isn't just ASD and ADHD. There are other types of ND too. Some people are above average intelligence, some average, or in my son's case, also has developmental issues or learning disability too.

It's difficult.
I coach and am on the commitee of a couple of sports' clubs and we do want to be as inclusive as possible but it can be very hard to balance the needs of the individual child with those the wider group, especially given that whilst we are all qualified to coach our sport that doesn't necessarily equip us with the skills needed to manage every child with physical disabilities, long term medical conditions or SEN. Generally I have found the parents of children with any kind of additional needs to be very helpful and supportive and if we ask "what do we need to do if..." we get a really good response.
But we have had one or two over the years who have been less helpful, including one parent who threatened to prosecute us for disability discrimination because we asked him to stay at coaching sessions to support his child with ASD. We had no wish to exclude the child or treat them unfairly but we did not have enough volunteers or the correct skillset to keep them safe and engaged and also maintain the safety and well being of the rest of the group. The parent didn't attempt legal action in the end but they left on less than good terms and it caused a lot of ill feeling, the loss of several players and very nearly the resignation of a coach.
I think common sense has to apply. Lots of children with additional needs can safely and happily join in with extracurricular activities with a little extra support, but it's not reasonable to expect volunteer coaches to be able to manage behaviour that mainstream schools haven't been able to cope with.

I suspect the group leaders are between a rock and a hard place. I know a local scout leader who have a number of children in their troop with special needs and challenging behaviour. They get very little support from parents, who would rather drop and run, or enjoy a child-free break when there's a camp. Any attempts to try and address the issues lead to aggression from the parents, or complaints to the District Leaders/local MP etc about child not being included. All the leaders are volunteers, and none of them trained to deal with SEN, so they are just doing the best they can under difficult circumstances. Funnily enough there is actually an SEN scout group locally, but the parents of this group don't want their SEN kids to go there. It's a difficult situation all round so I sympathise.

At least read OP's posts. She has two ND children.

When the inevitable fall out from a plan like this happens the other parents won't be front and centre with you OP, you'll be the lone voice accused of trying to get an ND child kicked out of what should be ostensibly an inclusive fun club. With optics like that it won't matter a jot that you have other ND children, nor that you were never even advocating to kick ND kid out of the club.

There was an autistic child in the Brownie pack that I supported and the boundaries were the boundaries for all the children. We made sure we had enough volunteers so that she could have 1-2-1 support if needed, accepted she didn't want to participate in all the activities and provided a quiet space for her to access. She had her moments (as did all of the girls from time to time!) but it was understood that no-one was permitted to disrupt activities or hurt other children. She was a lovely person and neither her nor her parents ever treated ND as a good reason to ruin someone else's experience; she just needed a few accommodations to access the same experiences which we made.

In this situation, the leaders are not safeguarding this child or the other children.

Who told them to leave? Oh, your dc made the decision to leave. I see. Your DC has not had to leave, they decided to.

I'm glad some are understanding and agreeing that it shouldn't be inclusion at the expense of the majority.

I attend a club with one of my ND DC as he cannot regulate without me if things go wrong. I have removed him if he doesn't get control quickly. I have also not taken him if he has been too disregulated that day. Of course I want him to join in but I accept he shouldn't be ruining others' enjoyment. other ND child goes to their clubs without me but I ask every week how things have been so I can nip any problems in the bud. To me this is just responsible parenting when you have ND kids. Last summer i spent 4 days down the road from school residential so my ND kid could attend and i was on hand if he disregulated. much as i'd like to drop and run this isn't practical when your child has additional needs.

I'm leaving DC to think it through and see what he feels in a few days.