To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

[DImplesandCheese]

TLDR: ND child is causing my DC to quit much loved hobby as ND child's behaviour is ruining it for them.

Full Story: DC (13) attended a hobby/club and has done for years. 2 years ago a new child joined. The child is ND and their particular behaviours include shouting out, not listening, inappropriate use of kit and refusal to fully participate in activities. DC has complained on and off since this child joined that it is spoiling it. I have encouraged DC to be understanding and supportive, I have spoken with the staff at the club to ask if more support for this child can be put in place. Nothing has changed.

Part of the club involves some unsupervised time and this is DC's favourite part of the club. The last two unsupervised sessions have been completely ruined by this child's behaviour, the group have had to call staff for help to sort it out and therefore their final result for the session has been effected. 2 months ago after the last ones of these sessions I spoke with staff and asked why this child doesn't have a 1 to 1 support/parent staying with them as this is hugely effecting everyone else's enjoyment and I was told that my DC is exaggerating and 'fixating' on this child.

DC came home last night as said he's quitting. This child has wrecked the night's activity again. I spoke to the staff and was told that they 'are an inclusive club and they pride themselves in being open to all' and hinted that DC leaving may well be for the best if he's not happy.

I have 2 ND DC, I get the difficulties, I get that they should have access to clubs and activities, I get that allowances need to be made for their behaviour. I am in no way suggesting the child should be kicked out but surely if you have children leaving because of another child then the support in place for that child isn't right?

AIBU to think that more should be done to support this child correctly so DC can continue to enjoy their hobby and that my DC having to leave is not an acceptable situation?

how the hell is my knit and natter example ableist??

It isn't.

I really feel for your DC. It must be tough to have something they enjoy become something they dread.
FWIW I don’t think YABU. Could you offer to stay during one of these events? I realise you have enough on your plate with your own DC but it might add weight to the argument that your DC isn’t fixating if you witness it too?

As the girl herself said years later (I went to secondary school with her). "How to make friends and influence people, be the reason a bunch of 7 year olds can't do x,y,z?"

She had SMA and was in an electric wheelchair, inclusion would have been involving her but accepting that her involvement might look different from everyone elses for some activities.

Also perhaps a similar situation here in that groups weren't rotated, everything was done in your six.

I attend a club with one of my ND DC as he cannot regulate without me if things go wrong.

@DImplesandCheese Yes, a child may need that extra support in order to participate. Your example reminds me of a football team that my DS was on. An ND child wanted to participate so his Dad volunteered as an assistant coach. If his son was struggling, he’d support him and sub him out if he needed a break. It worked out really well, because the child had the right support.

Because 'Nina ND' would have every right to stim up and down during your knit and natter. The alternative is 'Nina ND' stays at home and becomes more and more cut off from the community. It's not her fault that she makes you uncomfortable.

And if ‘NoraND’ can’t cope with that type of stimming, it’s fine for her to stay at home and be cut off from the community?

IT sounds like the club leaders are inappropriately expecting the other children to monitor and regulate the ND child's behaviour, and just 'let it go' when it ruins their own activities/challenges. That's very, very wrong.

Inclusivity is great if appropriate support is in place. Clearly, the support is inappropriate for this child and that should be addressed. Sounds like it won't be, though, as the club leaders sound reluctant to address it with parents or provide 1:1 support themselves for the child.

Haven’t RTFT but surely, the point of equity and inclusivity is to give ND children additional support so they can perform/engage at as close a rate as possible to their NT peers?
It seems the attitude is that it should be the other way around. That NT children have to change the way they engage instead. This doesn’t feel like a good solution at a societal level!

We're all responsible for our own happiness.

If Ninas stimming is a way to process her environment and makes her happy then she's not doing anything wrong.

If Nora is bothered by Ninas stimming then Nora is responsible for either accepting and processing the environment, having discussions about accomodations that can be made for her or removing herself from the situation.

Conflicting access needs are hard to resolve even with decent leadership. I used to take my autistic son to a local group similar to Scouts (parents/guardians stayed on site). We enjoyed it but when a child with high support needs joined, the dynamic changed. Another parent filed a complaint when the child was aggressive to her toddler, and they did take that seriously and for a time, the child didn't attend. When the child returned, sessions began to be structured around that particular child's needs which was fine at first but then began to develop into dynamic where the particular child began calling the shots and other children were encouraged to just give in for an easy life. My final straw was when the other child's parent told my child off for not sitting down, while their child was bouncing off the walls. We left.

"Inclusivity" is a word that means very little when the environment isn't suitable (or made to be).

Ah, so you’re one of those people for whom the loudest person gets their own way. Got it.

This! this is a very eloquent way of explaining the crux of the problem!

Yes, very well put, @Errors.

At my daughter's martial arts club there's a boy who has quite severe learning difficulties. He can't talk, and runs around the hall, often making excited noises. He clearly enjoys it very much, and can't participate at all with the routines and drills. However, everyone seems to take this in their stride, including the instructors, and his presence is joyful.

I wanted to add this experience to the thread, to give a more positive picture of what inclusion can look like.

Its likely that people are too scared to say. I posted a thread about a SEN childs behaviour in a coffee shop which included smashing cups and throwing a bucket of water over a table. (not all on the same occasion) Only a matter of time before someones property (like a laptop is damaged) Some agreed but a fair few of the hypocritical "it takes a village" brigade told me to mind my own. "it takes a village" means something entirely different than it used to @DImplesandCheese

Nothing is going to be done. They probably don't have the staff to give one to one. If you child wants to quit I would just try and find another club.

So you're saying that if NinaND needs to make noise and move around to regulate at a group activity and NoraND needs quiet and stillness to regulate at a group activity, and the group activity in question would reasonably expected to be quite and calm (knit and natter) then tough luck NoraND?! That sounds fair.

It sounds like a mess and should be managed far better - for everyone's sake. I would have thought that one of the benefits to the ND child would be having help to learn to navigate these social situations, but I am by no means an expert on this.

However, I guess others just don't find it as annoying as your DC, if they do then they will leave too and the club will have to manage things better. As it is, if DC can't stand the disruption, they really have no option but to leave. The only other option is to learn to live with it.

I totally get what you’re saying, I think your fighting a losing battle!

if your child is not happy at the club, I would let him leave.

Not terribly sure how you've come to that conclusion.

We ARE all responsible for our own happiness.

Nobody should be excluded for stimming.

It's incredibly ableist to suggest that someone should not process the world in the way that is most natural and comfortable to them because it might inconvenience or upset someone else.

I don't think you really know what stimming is if you think this is a shouting match.

I'm torn over this, my son is ND and has had issues at mainstream clubs and been effectively asked not to attend (sports ones, as he has a physical disability which means he's, bluntly, bad at team sports). I just found it really depressing that "winning" or in this case completing the activities seems more important than everyone being involved and enjoying the sport or activity. Yes it's annoying, but not completing activities and being a bit annoyed is sometimes how life goes, some people take longer, some people aren't as quick/clever/adaptable as you, some people need more support and it's OK to slow down, fail, take a different tack to ensure they're included. That's being kind.
I think if there'd been physical issues, aggression, personal verbal attacks, then that's different as it's a safety issue. Ultimately, it's just annoying.
I do think, if I was the parent of this child I probably would stay and intervene a bit though.
Ultimately every sport/club/activity makes a decision at some point on outcome vs inclusivity. In a lot of sports teams this results in it being a no-go for a lot of children, I suspect this club has come strongly from the other perspective and are fine for the teams to fail but for everyone to be included and that's their choice and ethos - and it's actually quite refreshing in my experience as an ND parent. Maybe that ethos doesn't suit your son, but that's his choice and maybe this isnt the right club for him.
This might not be the case, but I do wonder if your son has to make many allowances at home due to his siblings (understandably) and this was a place just for him without those issues. Perhaps he actually is fixating because he feels like these kind of issues are everywhere in his life now (which I can imagine and understand).

Who said anything about getting the other child excluded?

This isn't about them, it should be about addressing how their behaviour is being ignored, therefore, what the approach SHOULD be, is about the Staff/Volunteers lack of control, not the other childs behaviour.

@SoSo99 So he isn’t preventing the other participants from doing the drills and routines?

That’s the crux of the issue for the OP’s child, and certainly would have been an issue on my DS’s football team if the ND child’s Dad hadn’t always been there to support him.

I think it's reasonable to expect that in a group activity, especially around children, that silence is not a reasonable expectation and cannot be reasonably accommodated.

Nora can access sensory support aids, like loop earplugs. Nora is also responsible for advocating for her needs.

There are lots of situations in real life where the needs of people clash and there isn't a fair compromise.

In this situation where Nina is likely a sensory seeker, and Nora is a sensory avoider then it's not reasonable to expect the entire environment to be controlled to suit Nora.

Another example, if Timmy was a vocal stimmer, and spent a lot of time grunting and groaning and making long drawn out noises that were very loud and Timmy wanted to go and spend time at a café, Timmy is welcome to do that. If Tommy who is quite noise sensitive also wanted to go to the same café when Timmy was there vocally stimming it would not be fair to tell Timmy he was not able to stim, but it would be reasonable for Tommy to take support aids like earplugs or headphones and if that was not suitable because the environment was still inappropriate then Tommy has the opportunity to leave. Timmy is not responsible for Tommy's happiness or wellbeing and vice versa. If Tommy is the one with the problem and there is no collaborative solution then it isn't up to Timmy to leave.