To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

[DImplesandCheese]

TLDR: ND child is causing my DC to quit much loved hobby as ND child's behaviour is ruining it for them.

Full Story: DC (13) attended a hobby/club and has done for years. 2 years ago a new child joined. The child is ND and their particular behaviours include shouting out, not listening, inappropriate use of kit and refusal to fully participate in activities. DC has complained on and off since this child joined that it is spoiling it. I have encouraged DC to be understanding and supportive, I have spoken with the staff at the club to ask if more support for this child can be put in place. Nothing has changed.

Part of the club involves some unsupervised time and this is DC's favourite part of the club. The last two unsupervised sessions have been completely ruined by this child's behaviour, the group have had to call staff for help to sort it out and therefore their final result for the session has been effected. 2 months ago after the last ones of these sessions I spoke with staff and asked why this child doesn't have a 1 to 1 support/parent staying with them as this is hugely effecting everyone else's enjoyment and I was told that my DC is exaggerating and 'fixating' on this child.

DC came home last night as said he's quitting. This child has wrecked the night's activity again. I spoke to the staff and was told that they 'are an inclusive club and they pride themselves in being open to all' and hinted that DC leaving may well be for the best if he's not happy.

I have 2 ND DC, I get the difficulties, I get that they should have access to clubs and activities, I get that allowances need to be made for their behaviour. I am in no way suggesting the child should be kicked out but surely if you have children leaving because of another child then the support in place for that child isn't right?

AIBU to think that more should be done to support this child correctly so DC can continue to enjoy their hobby and that my DC having to leave is not an acceptable situation?

What I don't get is what's inclusive for the ND child when nothing is done in order for him to really be included; help with following rules etc. I have a ND and a NT child and I choose activities carefully for my ND child. For exemple he can join any one to one sport like tennis or badminton but he wouldnt be able to play in a team like football or basket-ball. Even if they would accept him he would struggle and 14-year old boys are not tender with someone making them lose a game..
He's going to summer camp for two weeks (daytime only) this summer with NT children his age but there will be a special assistant for him and another child to make sure they are integrated and explain rules/appropriate behaviour and to make sure they are not being manipulated as quite vulnerable and naïve.. Every place that calls themself inclusive should have extra ressources to be inclusive for everyone's sake..

In a school, a child who persistently failed to follow instructions - whether NT or ND - would probably have a risk assessment in place. That was certainly the case in the high school (Scotland) where I was a PTC/Faculty Head.

Admittedly, it only happened when staff below SLT level pushed for it.

I completely agree.

The general public are not unpaid social workers and/or bit-part players in the life of Nina ND. They are going to be understandably upset if they attend an event that they've been looking forward to (e.g. a West-end musical) and it is ruined by somebody causing disruption. If they find their weekly hobby clubs are intruded upon, they'll likely vote with their feet. For smaller groups, that could easily result in the groups folding.

This is why, and I know some people will hate this suggestion, I think that the onus should/must be on ND people fitting in with the majority whenever and wherever possible. We are doing ND children no long-term favours by shoehorning their behaviours into situations such as the OP's. As soon as people are old enough to walk away, they will do and the ND children will be left wondering why they've suddenly gone from a 'thriving' social life to one of being ostracised and isolated.

@ThisOldThang JFC tell me you have no effing clue about being ND without actually saying that.

Farking hell

My brother suffered a brain injury as a child. He has zero social skills and is incredibly hard work.

Some people tolerate him, but he doesn't actually have any friends in the normal sense of the word. You can't force people to spend time with somebody that is really annoying and rude.

@ThisOldThang but that isn't what you said. You said you think ND people should "fit in" unbelievable do you have any clue what being ND is? You know what just forget it, I have no interest in engaging clueless people like you any further.

Oh and a brain injury isn't the same as being ND, but nice comparison.

Oh and whilst I'm here, half the Software code would not have been written without ND people, the tech world is full of ND people. So whilst you are busy slagging them off your pension fund probably relies on these share prices in the tech industry doing well. (Off the back of ND people)

Change hobby club. Tbh the ND child's behaviour doesn't sound extreme, just irritating. If there's no physical violence, swearing then they couldn't be excluded. This is very standard in each class at school with added complications of violence, throwing, shouting etc.

To some extent yes, but people need to be firm with him and tell him that he's being rude, outstayed his welcome, not welcome, etc.

If he's given unlimited 'tolerance' his behaviour quickly become intolerable. He lives with my elderly father in a small village, so people know him and his issues. A lot of villagers are elderly and appear to be much more comfortable laying down rules and boundaries than the 'It's their legal right' brigade on this thread.

In a larger city, I fear he'd get his teeth kicked in by feral youth due to his behaviour.

Most people I know in tech are not the "make everyone uncomfortable by ruining group activities" type of NT, they're the type that wouldn't be able to tolerate said behaviour. Regardless your argument is ridiculous because you could say the same about the contributions NT people have provided for ND people. There's a middle ground between terrible masking that ruins your life, and having 0 boundaries or care towards what others are doing around you and whether your behaviour is appropriate or not.

Unless the ND person does not have the capacity (ie severe autism etc) then they can't just disregard societal rules completely, where is the line drawn? Nobody has an issue with being a little bit dense to social norms and rules, talking too loud/excitedly or at length about their interests or slightly inappropriate comments, but the OP says this child is taking equipment and making the team lose and shouting very loudly and he should be redirected and kept on track by members of staff that he can't take equipment and wander off vs just ignoring it because he's ND.

I was thinking about this thread last night whilst I was coaching at the kids' club I help run, and wondering what we would do if we had to provide 1:1 support for the children we have with additional needs of any kind. Fortunately we have parents who stay close by and support their own children, but had we needed to provide that extra level of support for even one child and stay within ratio I would probably have had to send about 10 children home.
I don't take the view that being volunteers places a club above criticism or means it's acceptable to operate to poor standards, but I think that clubs are often trying their best in very difficult circumstances in situations like this. Getting another volunteer is often a great deal easier said than done! Most youth sports clubs and other activities that I am aware of are really struggling to get enough adults to keep things running as it is. For us, providing 1:1 from our existing pool would be impossible unless we permanently reduced our numbers. And that would probably kill us off financially within 2 years as our fixed costs would remain unchanged. So what's the answer? Refuse the child with additional needs, refuse a whole group of other children or get along as best we can even if it isn't ideal? I would love extra volunteers, particularly if they were experienced with and knowledgeable about additional needs, but we have a waiting list most of the time as it is because we don't have enough adults to accomodate all the kids who want to come. If parents won't stay to provide the necessary support then clubs are really between a rock and a hard place.

"but you understand that the scouts could not tell him he’s not welcome?"

If the behaviour was disruptive and the parents or carers refused to attend and provide 1-to-1 support, then why couldn't the Scouts tell him he's not welcome? Why should everybody else have to manage/tolerate weekly disruption?

"you understand that telling what sounds like a serious ND child that “he’s being rude” is unlikely to change the situation"

If you're referring to my brother (he's approaching 50), then he will moderate his behaviour when he's told that he's being rude. He doesn't always understand when he's being rude, but he does understand that rude behaviour is unacceptable. He actually benefits from firm feedback because it means that those people willing to tolerate him for 15-30 minutes a week will continue to do so. If he 'forced' his way into all the village's social activities, I think people would rapidly tire of his presence and start avoiding him.

If we're talking about a hypothetical seriously ND child, I would question what they're going to gain from attending Scouts. If their attendance is just for 'social inclusion' then perhaps a Youth Club or non-competitive sports/games might be more suitable? Most people join Scouts for the outdoor activities, such as camping, trekking, climbing, learning survival skills, etc. If the ND child is incapable of learning/doing those things, and causes disruption to those children that do want to do those things, why is the ND child there?

What an awful post and exactly the opposite to what we’ve been told by professionals.

“I think that the onus should/must be on ND people fitting in with the majority whenever and wherever possible. “

Doing this is called masking and has caused my dd massive mental health difficulties and her to make attempts on her life.

I completely agree. We're asking children to bend over so far backwards to accommodate and include everyone at all costs that we're breaking them. That's not sustainable or fair to anybody.

Which is why the burden shouldn't be on children to monitor/regulate behaviour. The grown ups need to do better.

Which is why the burden shouldn't be on children to monitor/regulate behaviour. The grown ups need to do better.

@ThatsAFineLookingHighHorse Yes, that’s the impression I’m getting about these group activities in the OP’s posts. The 13-year-olds are told to work together and simply don’t know what to do when the ND child refuses to participate- because they’re just children! They don’t know how to make the correct adjustments, how could they?

In other words they should stay out of sight so that people aren't offended? Jesus Christ!

That's not remotely what that poster said.

We are doing ND children no long-term favours by shoehorning their behaviours into situations such as the OP's.

Yes. For those who read my posts about the girl who I had to remove from the West End theatre, she should never have been put in that position. I knew her very well, I knew that she'd find it sensorally difficult, and I knew she'd respond by being loud and physical and ruining it for all those who'd looked forward to it and spent a small fortune to go. But I was over-ruled by those for whom inclusion was gospel.

But that does NOT mean that we give up on helping severely ND people access acitivities and events.
I had another pupil who was at a different level of severity, and verbal. His mum said that they'd tried to go to the panto as a family and had to bail after five minutes due to his distress, and how sad that was. In this child's case, I knew that if he could manage the dark and the sound, he would really enjoy it. So over the next ten months, we worked on that. We had two trips to the very small local theatre, and I negotiated with the theatre to take him to the back of the auditorium where no-one else was seated, and where there was easy access to the exit. I talked him through it, he climbed on my knee for comfort initially, and I whispered to him encouragingly and explaining to him what would happen next. He gradually relaxed a little, end ended up in his own seat, just holding my hand.

The second time (in the meantime we'd been working on bright lights, loud sounds and darkness) those seats were available to me again. But after he was used to the dark and was managing better, and I saw him looking at his friends a few rows in front, I asked if he'd like to join them, and he did. By half way through he was really enjoying it.
That Christmas, his parents took the risk of booking the family to the panto again. We talked about it at school, he went, and he loved it. His parents were ecstatic. They just wanted to do this thing as a family, and we achieved it.

That's how including a ND child works. You DON'T put them in a situation which they know is going to end badly. You choose something where there's a reasonable chance of success (eventually) and that you know they will ultimately enjoy. And you structure it so that there's an escape route, and so that disturbance to others is minimised.

But of course it requires one to one support. So I'm afraid that parents have to be prepared to stay at something like Scouts or a hobby activity. And to choose it wisely.

The world is operated by the NT majority. That is a fact, whether we like it or not. However, the idea that people who are ND must conform or be ostracised is an old-fashioned notion that I had hoped was no longer considered acceptable. Helping and supporting someone doesn't mean changing everything about them. It would be impossible in any case. People who are ND can't just magically become NT, even with all the support in the world. It isn't a choice. The idea that the NT of the world shouldn't have to make any sort of accommodations for others, when the ND make accommodations every single day of their lives, is really sad.

My brother who I wrote about above has been treated terribly throughout his life. Very few people have been willing to look beyond the stimming and social difficulties to see him for the remarkable person he is. He has never hurt anyone. He's incapable of it. But the world remains a terrifying place for him, because the rules that an NT person absorbs without consciously being aware of it are unfathomable to him. It's not that he is ignoring those rules. He truly can't understand them, despite being extraordinarily intelligent from an academic perspective. But he tries every day of his life even when he is knocked back time and again (both literally and figuratively). He is quite frankly the bravest person I know. If he could receive some consideration and tolerance, it would make all the difference to him. And yet most people seem content with ignoring him, excluding him, relegating him to the sidelines. Sometimes they make a pretense of inclusion, while in fact setting him apart. This has happened all his life. And these same people have often patronisingly said they are only concerned for him, they only have his best interests at heart. What rubbish. They just feel uncomfortable around him because he is ND and they don't want to open their minds. It makes my blood boil to think about it. When it doesn't make me weep.

I don’t think you get to speak for all ND children or lecture to their parents actually. I didn’t stay at guides or brownies.