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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
FactsNotFictionOnly · 23/06/2024 03:14

MoMo999 · 23/06/2024 02:55

What did the British Government do when Terry Waite or John McCarthy were kidnapped in Lebanon or Rachel and Paul Chandler were kidnapped by Somali pirates? There seem to be a number of unsubstantiated claims on this thread that people don't know the history, or don't like Jews, or that they are held to a different standard. It is not the case.

It is perfectly possible that people can hold a different opinion from Israel and its supporters and so make legitimate criticisms, which as a democracy Israel should be able to take. This is just part of free speech.

Goodness me.

You think Israel should have paid ransoms or just left the 240 hostages to languish for 5+ years? Hostages aged from 9 months up?

They should have traded 1 hostage for 1000 Palestinian prisoners like when Sinwar was released in 2011 to plan Oct 7th?

What should they have done about the 5000 killed or injured on Oct 7th?

Turned the other cheek?

I guess you think Hamas should be allowed to remain in power too? After all that’s what the Palestinians want.

OP posts:
WhiteCatBeer · 23/06/2024 03:18

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Opinionwontchangeluv · 23/06/2024 03:19

Agree and yes I'm non Jewish

CyanideShake · 23/06/2024 03:23

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:01

It’s ironic that you’re terrified about a second holocaust when there’s a genocide of the Palestinians happening right now.

We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.

well said

Mamai100 · 23/06/2024 03:26

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 22/06/2024 23:26

@FactsNotFictionOnly , my heart broke reading your (not a question) plea. My observation is that Mumsnet is very left wing and as such I don’t expect much sympathy for you. The left is often horrifically and institutionally antisemitic.
Stammer advocated for a filthy human who called the antisemitic terrorists of Hamas his friends. 🤷‍♀️
There’s always jealousy from the left of people who work hard, make sacrifices, take risks and do well. The minute you’ve got some wealth, the left want to take it from you to give to the feckless and workshy. However the left particularly demonise Jewish people. They disgust me.

Ironic username.

MoMo999 · 23/06/2024 03:37

FactsNotFictionOnly · 23/06/2024 03:14

Goodness me.

You think Israel should have paid ransoms or just left the 240 hostages to languish for 5+ years? Hostages aged from 9 months up?

They should have traded 1 hostage for 1000 Palestinian prisoners like when Sinwar was released in 2011 to plan Oct 7th?

What should they have done about the 5000 killed or injured on Oct 7th?

Turned the other cheek?

I guess you think Hamas should be allowed to remain in power too? After all that’s what the Palestinians want.

You can invent all the responses you want, but you certainly can't glean that from my response. The question was, what would other governments do? Other governments, when they do intervene, negotiate. The most hostages that Israel got released, was when it negotiated i.e. over 100. By force it rescued 3 and killed a few others by mistake. Given this, I am not sure where the claim comes from that Israel is held to a different standard to other democracies when it is asked to refrain from its actions in Gaza. I just can't follow the logic of that

ForThisPost1 · 23/06/2024 03:43

EberswalderStrasse · 23/06/2024 00:39

Ok then, let me spell it out for you given that you “don't follow what is going on with all of the current conflicts“. 5.5M killed in Congo. 500K killed in Syria. 500K killed in Sudan. 400K killed in Yemen. 300K killed in Iraq. 250K killed in Afghanistan. Where is your outage when it comes to these much bloodier conflicts?

And what if the atrocities of Oct 7th itself? Eyes gouged out, breasts sliced off, beheadings, families tied together with wire and burned alive, the most insanely violent gang rapes (where the victims were cruelly taunted by the perpetrators), infanticide, human trophies (dead bodies) driven around the streets of Gaza for civilians to stamp and spit on…let me guess, you’re not across the details of this atrocity either right?

And yet somehow we’re expected to believe your exclusive condemnation of the world’s only Jewish state has nothing to do with antisemitism? Get real.

This! 👏

Mugofchoice · 23/06/2024 03:43

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at OP's request

Mamai100 · 23/06/2024 03:48

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 00:05

I think it's quite interesting and worthwhile to discuss why someone conflicts really grip the public and others are practically ignored.

This poster referenced the affinity between the Irish and the Palestinians. Its nothing to do with what grips the public.

In Ireland we're well versed on the plight of the Palestinian people due to our similar history.

This was long before the 7th of October.

GeneralPeter · 23/06/2024 03:52

@WhiteCatBeer Yes, I wouldn't rest too much on the strong Republican/Unionist alignment, as that's clearly driven mainly by Irish issues, so the causality runs the other way.

There is quite a lot of openly antisemitic thought and writing by key politicians in the early 20th century Ireland which has nothing to do with Palestine, and from the church. It's complicated (especially de Valera, the Jews and Naziism) and I don't want to paint Ireland as uniquely antisemitic. I think my main point is that prejudices can shape which plights people care about (which I think you agree with, given your comments on sectarian alignment with Palestine/Israel). And that there is an antisemitic tradition in Ireland that is not derived from the Palestinian issue, just as there has been in other countries too.

Orangeandgold · 23/06/2024 03:53

I’m from a war torn country but live in the UK. The country has been in war for decades and the world turns a blind eye. I sometimes think it’s because of who is involved.

Like you said, this war is different to the rest and I think that the way that Jewish people are being made to feel right now is digusting. The few I know here in the UK are just as torn up about the safety of their families as are many that are from the Palestinian nations. I think it’s insane that people do not realise how Israel is shrinking and the world seems to be cheering it on. It’s scary.

kkloo · 23/06/2024 05:56

GeneralPeter · 23/06/2024 03:52

@WhiteCatBeer Yes, I wouldn't rest too much on the strong Republican/Unionist alignment, as that's clearly driven mainly by Irish issues, so the causality runs the other way.

There is quite a lot of openly antisemitic thought and writing by key politicians in the early 20th century Ireland which has nothing to do with Palestine, and from the church. It's complicated (especially de Valera, the Jews and Naziism) and I don't want to paint Ireland as uniquely antisemitic. I think my main point is that prejudices can shape which plights people care about (which I think you agree with, given your comments on sectarian alignment with Palestine/Israel). And that there is an antisemitic tradition in Ireland that is not derived from the Palestinian issue, just as there has been in other countries too.

I think my main point is that prejudices can shape which plights people care about

They can but often people care about plights because they empathize with the people, not because of negative prejudices about the perceived aggressor, the aggressor could be anyone.

People generally want the killing to stop and they want peace.

Irish peoples reaction to the Ukraine war wasn't because of anti-Russian sentiment, it was because people felt desperately sad for Ukrainians.

TowerStork · 23/06/2024 07:02

"Israel is shrinking"

Well up is down and black is white.

The Israeli propaganda passing itself off as concern for anti-Semitism is off the charts on Mumsnet.

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:16

Similarly when Israeli government violence increases, violence against Jewish communities increases

The day after the Oct 7 attack, Jewish communities were being attacked. Israel hadn't even retaliated yet.

MadameMassiveSalad · 23/06/2024 07:27

I have many British Jewish friends who hate the Israeli government and what they are doing. Are they being antisemitic too OP?

CoffeeCantata · 23/06/2024 07:32

Yes I do. It's very depressing. I'm not talking about politics or the Israel/Palestinian issue.

I'm not Jewish, btw, but I'm aware and horrified at what I see going on in terms of 'acceptable' opinion.

somewhereovertherain · 23/06/2024 07:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

somewhereovertherain · 23/06/2024 07:39

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:16

Similarly when Israeli government violence increases, violence against Jewish communities increases

The day after the Oct 7 attack, Jewish communities were being attacked. Israel hadn't even retaliated yet.

Hmm maybe look with open eyes. Isreal is the one who i breaks creasfires.

why not look at how the Palestine’s are treated and wonder why the need to fight for survival

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Repulsive comment

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:39

You're not half as clever as you think you are.

somewhereovertherain · 23/06/2024 07:39

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:39

Repulsive comment

No simple facts.

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:41

somewhereovertherain · 23/06/2024 07:39

No simple facts.

You're very transparent

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:43

Anyway do tell us how you define a Zionist? like we don't already know

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 07:46

And do explain the anti semetism which existed centuries before the state of Israel was created?

pandasorous · 23/06/2024 07:46

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

I'm sorry, what? what superior race bullshit is this?

don't disagree that historically the Jewish people have suffered. but so have many others. this idea that they are being scapegoated by ALL of humanity is a bit insane.

also OP's initial post is full of historical inaccuracies, mainly because her source seems to be Wikipedia. if you are writing about something so significant, at least be accurate?

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