Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

That’s the thing, those parents who have moved their kids to private because of issues such as lack of support for SEN and bullying also believe they shouldn’t have to pay for the right support.

But Labour hasn’t clarified that they will use the funding from VAT to tackle these specific issues. The only thing i’ve read is more teachers. But if they do get more teachers, nothing will work unless policies and processes also change. So no point charging the VAT unless something valuable will be done with it.

I dislike the hypocrisy of high earning Labour voters moving house to maximise the chance of their children getting into outstanding schools. One family I know were unhappy with DC’s state primary so moved and are currently paying in excess of £6k a month to rent in an exclusive area and get DC into the local outstanding primary. 6k a month out of taxed invome.

But their alternative is not free housing.

Also, many people who have done that have been shafted by rising interest rates in recent years. Standard advice seems to be they should have planned better.

You are just as privileged having an outstanding state school to be able to send your obviously bright/driven children to (which they must be if they’re getting top grades) while also being able to sit right up there on the moral high ground and look down on parents who don’t have that opportunity due to terrible state options. I’m genuinely happy for you, but don’t criticise or question the, often hard, choice of private school parents who don’t have those two natural advantages to start with.

This

I didnt question anyone, I said the OP was being judgemental.

9 out of 10 state school buildings are in need of repair and improvement. Meanwhile the independent school I used to work in has a wealthy foundation and has a golf course. What we should be campaigning for is more funding, better facilities and investment into state education so that it can truly meet the needs of all children.

Absolutely, our son's catchment school has serious issues with bullying (reported in their 2022 Ofsted), and only a third of pupils pass English and maths GCSEs. Did I want my additional needs son going there?
Meanwhile, champagne socialist mums in the catchment of an outstanding school with a 55% English/maths pass rate talk to me about VAT 'levelling the playing field.'

You did though - "others aren't willing to make the sacrifice"

Millions just don't have the cloth to cut, though.

You make out you're a better person for making these "sacrifices".

Perhaps, if you are adamant, you could illustrate what that looks like because as a one child family in our 40s with no car (and no foreign holiday booked this year) we simply don't have the funds to commit to private school.

Luxuries are subject to VAT. I could afford a new bathroom if they took the VAT off the bill, but that extra stretches me too far.

Prvate school is a luxury, it buys you privilege. It keeps your child away from the rough kids. It buys your child attention in a small class size. It buys them friends who are also privileged. So by all means send your child to private school, just be willing to pay the VAT.

OP - youre brave posting about this :) - most of MN hate people who send their children to private school - its just how it is. I have two in private school, the VAT increase won't affect us, we are extremely lucky and fortunate to be able to afford it, and we know this. If i were you - i wouldn't go round trying to debate this, certainly not on mumsnet either, you will get absolutely torn apart.

Happy for no Vat so the rest of us can afford homes in decent catchments. And yes all the secondaries in this area have catchments.

A really interesting article. Thank you

Ultimately you are buying privilege for your child. Why not reflect on the morality of that and whether we should all be getting out the violins for you…

Because UK is very class-conscious society and this is a question of social class, not logic

I have used PE until we moved.

VAT is fair. It is a luxury.

It’s not about envy. It’s about fairness.

Whilst on an individual level I feel for any children that do HAVE to move but I feel worse about the children in this country who have no hope of getting out of the poverty trap they are in.

I also believe that the vast majority of parents will be able to adapt if it’s a priority for them. Schools and parents will be able to create cost cuttings and generate more income it the funds somehow.

We are amongst the most privileged people in the world and the most well resourced to shoulder the burden of getting a bit more into the public purse.

I find the hyperbole about how dire it will be and the terrible impact it will have on society if this tax comes in a bit embarrassing.

IF Labour gets in and IF they put in this tax then most will adapt perfectly fine. Even if this means changing school. My DC went from private to state due to a move and they are fine. They are doing much better than kids whose parents are struggling to put food on the table. We consider ourselves hugely fortunate to have had that choice in the first place.

I consider VAT on fees to be putting right an historical wrong. PE has changed and IS a luxury.

I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school

If you think most middle class families can afford this, you are in one hell of a bubble. Or your bar for middle class-ness very high.

My husband and I were both teachers. There is absolutely no way that we could have found the money for private education for our children. I shouldn't have to provide the maths and our budget for you to be able to recognise that, but rest assured, we never purchased a car that was less than six years old, for starters.

It's this kind of bubble thinking and judgementaism and assumptions about other people's lives that causes the ill feeling in private school threads.

I think the VAT on private school fees is the wrong issue. State education should receive appropriate funding to help close the gap between state and private schooling. Private schools can provide a useful benchmark for where state schools should be.

It’s not educating her kids privately that gets her torn apart. What gets her torn apart is the bragging, judgmental tone of her post implying she’s a superior parent because she includes private education in her spending and people living in one bedroom flats with £800pcm cars could do the same if they were more like her. Risible.

I don't send my kids private, we can't afford to.

I think the biggest issue many of us who don't have is that those who do keep complaining, very loudly that it's not fair they will have to pay VAT for an optional choice in the UK which very few people can actually aford (7% in the uk go private). They also keep complaining like the OP on this thread that it would be easy for many people to send their kids private if only they didn't go on Holiday or own a car. Which is ridiculous as school fees are way more expensive the that here. They have chose an expensive option that is just not possible for most people. So we don't have much sympathy when they constantly complain about having to pay VAT on a luxury purchase.

It would be like me complaining about paying VAT on my clothes or my holiday 🙄.

Very true

I often wonder what the Aussies on here think about it all. In Australia, as I understand it, both private schools, and parents, receive tax concessions, rather than deductions. Same for private health. It's a completely different mindset.

I fundamentally disagree with this and this opinion and I would argue this is why society is experiencing the many problems we have encountered with the focus on Science as our saviour! We need historians to interpret and relay the lessons of the past - what can we learn today about putting power in the hands of the few. Even philosophical perspectives- technological advances allow us to do things but ‘should ‘we do those things, nuclear atomic bomb being developed and subsequently used is a good example of that. Science may have the answers, maybe make our lives easier but at what cost? Science doesn’t look at those questions with the depth of analysis that a humanities degree would. I was listening to a radio programme the other day that highlighted how technological advances have made our lives easy by removing or minimising inconveniences of interactions but it is that friction in those experiences that is living and this is more harmful to our children but also adults as this is what ‘living’ is, to remove all those slightly uncomfortable experiences e.g speaking to someone on a phone, going to a shop to purchase your goods rather than online, working on your own at home even, are we creating our (humanities) own demise. I don’t think the validity of university degrees is just about practical application following an individual’s completion of the course. It is literally not the point of university!

Private school parent here. I hate the 'we make sacrifices' argument. It's out of reach for the majority of people and saying that makes them feel crap, so they're going to lash out.

Thank you@labamba007 . You've summed it up. Those of us who don't bring home huge salaries and live pretty frugal lifestyles (despite being middle class) don't appreciate being told that we don't care enough about our kids education to find the money somehow (how?), as OP did in her opening post - and then asked why were so touchy.

@LlamaTwirl a useful benchmark?

Benchmarking tends to work when underlying criteria are similar. So once private schools have no selection criteria and can't expel children who are not clever enough, rich enough or well behaved enough, then yes that might be an idea.