Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

But people really don’t give a flying fuck about your ‘sacrifice’. You must think people should, otherwise you wouldn’t have written it.

People complaining so vociferously about this one issue because they think they can't afford the additional cost have lost sight of the fact that they're just not that special. They're merely - to the people who can afford increases easily - just another group who are jealous that they can't afford it.

Real life is going without because the rent/electric/bus fare to work won't get paid otherwise. Not complaining about 'having' to buy a house in a grammar catchment or 'only' having an older car/one holiday.

I get that it's crap not being able to afford something that others can take for granted, especially if you've never experienced that with housing, clothes, school uniform, transport or anything else. But that's life.

Many many kids don't have DLA or EHCPs but absolutely do have SEN and are in private for that reason.

The tone of this debate is a large part of pur problems as a country.

The notion that 'people work hard' to send their children to private school, or that is what ia required to do the best for your children sneers at those who don't, won't or can't.

People argue that private school is open to anyone who chooses for work hard enough.

But if we are all on £100k, who is even going to teach them, nurse hospitals, provide social care, keep our services running.

I honestly thought after the pandemic we would have more respect for essential workers but no, they are still disregarded as not having enough ambition.

I'm not a socialist and don't 'hate the risk' or get with 'politics of envy' but do think that there should be more respect for ordinary people doing ordinary things who have a right to quality food, good housing, health and education as a basic right.

Also private schools are totally built on exclusiveness and privilege. That's why schools like Eton are triple the fees of others so they can keep the rif raf out.

And if you think £800 a month for a car is 'not that different' from committing to £1200 a month school fees, then and extra 15% is 'not that different' either.

Which is why the state system needs properly funding and diversifying. As you've said even state schools which claim excellent SEN support can't provide the best environment.

I'm so glad your son is getting the support he needs. We had the same issues with our son, but you shouldn't have to be paying a private provider for it.

‘First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.’

First off - you AREN’T objective! ‘I loathe the idea of my child’s private education costing g more money’ gives you a huge bias!

My coming from a WC background has given me one - I could afford fees but choose not to.

My career in Education has also give me anorher bias - I don’t believe that private schools are good for the U.K., are worth the money, or used by ‘Strivers’.

So, I’m afraid you lost me at ‘First off’ -
this tax break is going.

I've been surprised in the other direction, op- I'm a private school parent and part of a school-wide Whatsapp group where VAT is being discussed. The number of parents who have suggested truly appalling things has horrified me, eg that we should all register for a state school place even if we have no intention of taking it up just to mess up the state system. People slagging off state schools, suggesting the school saves the VAT by cutting teachers' pensions- you name it. I've found it quite shocking TBH. Feel a bit like that Mitchell and Webb sketch- "are we the bad guys?"

I think people generally would be far more sympathetic if worried private parents were just honest- they are scared they won't be able to afford the fee increase and that their DC will have to move schools as a result, and at the moment it's all unknown. I think all parents could understand that's a worrying thing. Instead people have doubled down on some pretty unconvincing and obnoxious political arguments.

My own view is that I don't particularly object to VAT on fees but hope the new government has thought through the impact, especially in areas where there is already pressure on state school places. There will be unintended consequences, as there are with everything, so I'd suggest they implement it carefully rather than just rushing to grab a headline, and I hope they make some concrete announcements about timing soon.

That's undoubtedly true. But that's what a properly resourced and diversified state system should be able to address for all kids.

See, THIS is the type of private school parent I can respect !

‘we have money, we chose private’

Voted YABU even though I disagree with charging VAT on school fees because it won’t bring in any money and will make inequality in education worse and not better - not just my opinion but that of the Adam Smith Institute (https://www.adamsmith.org/news/applying-vat-to-independent-school-fees-could-cost-as-much-as-16-billion?format=amp).

Choosing a private school is clearly buying educational privilege. In my opinion paying over the odds to buy a house that means you’re in the catchment of the school you want your child to attend is buying the same privilege but bizarrely is seen as fair game where private is not. Personally I’d rather be honest about it and pay the money directly to the school.

Regardless of your views on private schools this is a bad policy. The Corbyn era policy of the state taking over private schools might have improved equality in the long term - this will make it worse but looks good in a headline so they’re doing it anyway.

I absolutely agree. But this policy will not provide that nor go anywhere NEAR it. As I said upthread, we need multiple billions invested in physical infrastructure, teachers, training, CAMHS, It's all related. This will do fuck all to address that but catch kids like mine who are finally settled and able to attend a school. But so long as it's only "a few" I guess that's ok. Even though wrecking their current fragile mental health is the cost.

You sound very judgemental on people "only" affording 1 bedroom apartments, and what car they drive, and having nice cars but putting kids in state school. Jeez! So what if people have expensive cars and put their kids in state school, there's nothing wrong with state school. I personally wouldn't dream of spending my money at private school my kids have both had an amazing education at their outstanding state schools and came out with top grades on everything. Funnily enough their friend at private school didn't do so well, so it's clear there's no guarantees either way.

They have, they estimate that even with a 3-5% drop out it'll raise over a billion. I don't have any faith it'll be spent wisely though, it's going to go on plugging the gaps left by decades of underfunding. The state system needs a massive investment and rethink and I don't think Labour are overflowing with the radical thinkers to do it.

It’s envy OP. Nothing more, nothing less. And that’s the way society has developed - people glee at children’s lives being uprooted by having to change schools.

I agree completely. As you've said, real change would require massive investment, on a scale not seen since post WWII and it's clear Labour have no intention of going down that route.

The trouble is the more exemptions and complications you introduce into a system the more loop holes you get and the richer parents have more money to pay legal fees to look at ways of exploiting these loopholes where there is a financial incentive. Dla for example the lowest care rate only requires your child to require care over and above a typical child their age of one extra hour a day. Linking the vat exemption to dla would result in increased claims for dla. Richer parents are in a much better position to obtain private reports as supporting evidence. Private schools already have a higher percentage of pupils that get special accommodations in GCSEs/a levels such as extra time compared to % of pupils in mainstream and that’s not because their is a higher percentage of sen pupils in private schools but because the private schools know how to game the system more in certain instances so a child with slight sen in a private school may get extra time whereas in a mainstream that child may never have even been identified as sen

'I see plenty of people on the school run/dropping kids off at state schools in cars that would cost in excess of £800 a month to lease and that is not far off private primary school fees'

How mad to know what every car may cost to lease a month!

All I know about cars is that big ones probably cost more than mine that I bought for £500 and they get from a to b. If I see one that may be leased, I couldn't care less. Some people like big fancy cars, some don't. It seems wholly irrelevant to a discussion about private school fees.
Maybe people pay more for cats because they want to keep their children safer in one (another argument but let's not go there today!)

But I forgot!! Us plenty non private school parents what was it? Aren't doing our best for our children

Do go back to your bubble, love, and let us do what we can. I could start telling about how well my adult children have done academically and in life generally despite their second class education, but there's no point.

But it doesn’t, address that point first get state working for all kids then introduce the vat

You're right that the OP isn't going to get anywhere with this argument, but not for the reasons that you suggest. It really isn't about resentment, it is simply that many of us think your arguments don't stack up.

I have no reason to resent you. If I had wanted to send my dd to a private school, I would have done. We could have comfortably afforded it but we chose not to. DD did fantastically well in state, and I have no regrets. Likewise, having been state educated myself, I am no less happy or successful than my friends who were privately educated. I genuinely can't see why you would assume that I have anything to resent.

I suspect that the default reaction of "oh, they're just jealous" prevents many from actually engaging with the points that people are making because none of you seem to get it. This isn't about envy.

Exactly this

I think the private school posters are missing the point. They are not taking your choice away from you. Private schools will still be there. What they want, and a lot of people want to, is that all children have access to the same standard of education

Because of the Tories having different priorities (cough Rwanda flights cough) investment in the 93% of children that go through the state system has been decimated in recent years, and this started before the pandemic before that is rolled out as an excuse

To ‘level up’, to use a good ole Tory phrase, it needs to be paid for and that comes from taxes. This will pay for support for those children that many say are disrupting their kids, more teachers so there are smaller class sizes like private schools and more resources like private

I don’t think any decent adult, parent or not, can argue that all children deserve a decent, good quality education and opportunities regardless of background

Well the £1.5k a month it costs is about the wage that people earn for a full months work.
There are many places in the spectrum between haves and have nots.
Your ability to pay this to many people is astonishing. You simply need to open your mind to that fact and own it. What other people write on line will not impact you or your life. Simply people will think that if you can afford 1.5k a month you could stretch to 1.8k. And most will.

The thing is no one is looking to properly fund and diversify the system. SEN has hardly been mentioned by any political party and none of the schools i work in are expecting any significant change to funding overall.

Labour have said curriculum review and changes to accountability measures will change. They've also said they will recruit more teachers and fund breakfast out of VAT.

So I agree that the state shoukd be providing sen education and its wrong parents feel forced into paying. But I dont actually think we are looking towards a situation where they will be supported.

Oh look, another whiny, trying to be stealth braggy, private school VAT post that has no question for AIBU, being postdd on AIBU 🙄 MNHQ should be moving thus posts to the relevant boards like they do for other recurrent topics like GE and Royal family. It's becoming clear MNHQ kids must all be in private school for continuously allowing this middle class moaners to incessantly post in the wrong place.

That’s because the majority of parents think that sen doesn’t effect them and I’ve also seen threads in the past with people moaning about sen children taking funds away from the majority instead if the same funds being used to benefit a larger amount of non sen children. This government has every much been about divide and conquer so people blame each other rather than the government. So when an autistic child is throwing chairs round room and the class has to be evacuated instead of recognising the fact that the child needs to be given support in school or to be given a special school place, both of which are now extremely hard instead it suits the government that other people blame the parents and the child

I hope Labour feel happy they’ve pitted working class parents against a small section of middle class parents.

It will be the parents who are driving a banger and never go on holiday who’ll have to pull their kids out, not the genuinely rich.

Private school will now only be for the super rich only.

The great state schools catchment areas will be dominated by the types who would have put their kids on private schools but now just use the money to buy a house closer to a better state school, taking up all the places.

Meanwhile they’ll do nothing to claw back the Covid fraud money which will genuinely make a difference.

It’s all culture war bollocks.