Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

Also, the people on these threads whose children have already finished private school, who weren't trying to find the fees during a cost of living crisis, who sent them before the huge rise in fees over the past 5-10 years - they're so keen to tell other people to 'own it'. It's always the same arguments on both sides. Nothing new.

Fair point. I would say I had kids in private schools over a 20 year period which included the financial crash of 2008 so there were times when it was pretty touch and go. I'm pleased I'm out of the game now and wish you all the best.

And I certainly object to the idea that people should vote fucking Tory who will continue to screw over the vast majority of children so that a minority of children's parents can continue to buy their way out of the mess and continue to not give a shit about all the other.

@noblegiraffe i think I’m right that you’re a teacher? Do you think it will be easy for the Labour Party to find 6500 new teachers which is what they claim they will do with the money raised from private school fees VAT?

We'll probably be OK - just! But I know a lot of other families who are very worried. I think it would be fairer if Labour just abolished private schools, if they don't agree with them. Then at least everybody would be in the same boat.

Think of all the holidays and Range Rovers you could buy if they did that 😉

I’ve never been in a position to send my children to private school but understand why you do. I would too if I earned that much.
Will VAT on top mean you won’t be able to afford to anymore?

@LemonadeSunshine and anyone else using the completely absurd envy/jealous argument, please explain to me how I can make a valid point without being accused of it?

I'm not interested in the Range Rover. However, I would probably do a few house improvements and pay for a private tutor to come to the house - which my kids would hate - so perhaps better if that doesn't happen!

It’s not really free though is it… we pay for it from our taxes. Some proportionately more than others.

I think the point the OP was originally making is that many comments on these threads are just along the lines of 'serves you right'. I don't think she was claiming that absolutely nobody ever made a valid point.

Who said it should be subsidised?

I see where you're coming from OP and I agree with you.

Your point on nursery fees was interesting. There is a year between two kids and even as a higher earning household, it hurt. It was almost a grand a week at one point and we were fortunate enough that I was able to work late at night remotely instead on some days to reduce days they were in nursery. That was a privilege.

We don't have a grand a week going spare! It would have been cheaper for one of us to stop working. Just as having grandparents to help out regularly would have been.

Some people are also in a position where grandparents will help out financially towards a private education, which would otherwise be unaffordable. State schools shouldn't be so strapped - it was a political choice which needs to change, but vat on education isn't the answer. There are people in dire circumstances - that too is mainly a political choice and needs to change.

There was money begged, borrowed or stolen to accommodate the lies on Brexit, dodgy PPE scandals and everything else that has spaffed obscene amounts up the wall, but not for schools.

Yes agreed, it is a privilege not a luxury. A luxury is an odd way to describe it. Many children are also unhappy at private schools and wouldn’t describe it as a luxury I’m sure. But they are privileged to be getting a good level of education there.

Indeed. But if you paid 0 tax because you earn so little, your children still get an education. I pay the highest rate, and I would much rather my tax went to the education of all U.K. children than to the military or bailing out banks but I recognise that I don’t always get to decide WHERE the my contribution goes to.
Nor do I always benefit directly from it.

It's a combination of cost of living/fee rises of around 30-40% in last 5-10 years/now prospect of extra 20%, that's causing the strain.

@MyNameIsFine Ah thank you.
I don’t have any issue with people sending children to private school. I would think it’s unsettling for the kids too if they have to move to a state school.
Im not sure why there is so much hatred towards private education. Yes it would be great if everything was equal but it’s not and never will be.

Private schools have increased their fees by 30-50% over the last decade … THATS what’s causing the issues.
Mostly to create ‘state of the art’ facilities to attract wealthy overseas families who can afford the boarding fees.

A school not far from us has its own zoo. Nice I suppose, but a zoo? It doesn’t specialise in agriculture or anything. Just school that offers riding lessons, and has a zoo…
If I was a parent using that school, I might suggest that there are some obvious cost cutting areas…

Still, the day fees are £30k and boarding £45k so perhaps I wouldn’t be worried about. The VAT bit if I was forking that out on per child school fees

That’s mad. I’m not surprised there is uproar about adding VAT on top.

@stepfordblanket

Well said! I was one of the many that said that seriously we don't care about VAT because we like the vast majority, 93% used state schools. It's just a non issue but reading Mumsnet you would have thought it's a genuine election question for ordinary people. If you can afford private school fees op you are fairly wealthy so you are being a bit blind to not realise that those on far more modest incomes are making the "same sacrifices" you talk about to afford food for shelter.

It's just not an electoral issue for me or the majority. That said I have not even seen the proposal yet and the devil is always in the details!

a zoo? Yes, that is weird! The fee rise is to do with pensions and teacher salaries, mainly, plus rising energy bills have hugely affected schools with so many rooms to heat. Many independent schools raise funds separately for building projects - generally from former pupils.

I think the trouble is that the OP effectively said “it’s not my fault if you don’t love your children enough to make the same sacrifices as me”. Her words implied a superiority because she thinks everyone earning half decent money could afford private school if only they were willing to prioritise their children - as she has.

She’s complaining about being judged while she’s simultaneously judging others for not being willing to make an oh-so-simple sacrifice to pay for private school.

I think it’s going to be hard to get people onside with that kind of attitude, tbh.

@OvalLemon of course state education is free by the commonly accepted, very widely understood definition by just about everyone.

I despair, I really do.

Are you next going to tell me it's not free for me to sit on the beach on the basis that the council built a harbour wall in 1897?

Give me strength. After all these threads by rich people moaning about feeling victimised because people think VAT should be paid on a luxury such as private school, it's now my number one reason for voting Labour.

You are not a victim, stop acting like one.

Honestly, the name calling doesn't bother me. We aren't in the playground and it says more about you than it does about me.

I am simply making the point that it is possible to support this policy for reasons that have nothing to do with envy, resentment, hating people who use private schools or wanting to make them unaffordable for people. For many of us - including some private school parents - it is simply a question of what we consider to be fair.

Of course, people are absolutely entitled to disagree with that position, and many have done so, quite vociferously, with reasoned arguments as to why they hold a different view. That's fine. But the repeated assertion that this is all about the politics of envy/hating private school kids etc really needs to be put to rest. It's a very easy way to dismiss people that are making arguments that you don't like, but it simply isn't true and I'm tired of hearing it.