Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

A school not far from us has its own zoo

Soowoo which school is that?

Yes, they are, by definition. A sacrifice is giving up one thing for the sake of another.
What you're trying to say is that these sacrifices aren't on the same scale, which is true

No. And 6500 teachers is a quarter of a teacher per school so it’ll make bog-all difference anyway.

It is also unclear whether that is 6500 more teachers than current recruitment levels (which are well below target) or 6500 teachers above current targets which would be a pipe dream.

And they might need the money to fund a pay rise for current teachers as the government is currently withholding the independent pay review board recommendation from being published so no one knows what is being recommended for September. It could be a larger percentage than expected.

It’s a stupid pledge.

The OP asked why so many posters seem to support the policy because they don't like private school parents and want to punish them. I replied. Why you chose to start telling us about your fantastic life and your fantastic children, I don't know. My comments weren't aimed at you personally.

There are greater ramifications than just upsetting ‘rich’ folks. If you live on the edge of catchment for a great state school, in a couple of years time you may be bumped out as those struggling to pay private will have to change to state school.

There will not be the funding to enlarge the state schools immediately therefore for a few years it will literally be dog eat dog fighting for shortage of state school places.

Beware for what you wish the outcome will effect everyone.

I can live with that. It's already dog eat dog, but at least with labours proposal, a luxury product will be fairly taxed.

Such a great point. However most of those on MN are too busy bashing those who can afford private school to understand this.

Or we are aware of demographic shifts and know that school numbers will fall, as has already been pointed out, and schools will be able to accommodate any children leaving the private sector.

It’s not winning any sympathy from the state school parents on here to announce that all the kids leaving private schools will just flex their privilege differently and try to deprive kids of places at the grammar or sought-after comprehensives. It sounds like a threat. Luckily where I live it won’t happen because there are plenty of good schools with spaces in and big catchments.

They haven't. On another thread I said I send my dc to private and work no harder than the next person. I would also rather vote reform (joke!) than utter the words we make sacrifices..... want the best.... blah blah

It is a choice and a privilege. I happen to believe in the VAT as it is a luxury.

That thread in particular was dripping with unpleasantness and sneering comments like envy, race to bottom etc. Except, nobody came across as remotely jealous. It seems as if some folk really want others to be jealous of their CHOICES.

It's a combination of cost of living/fee rises of around 30-40% in last 5-10 years/now prospect of extra 20%, that's causing the strain.

I think this is honest. Lower income families were the first hurt by energy and food price rises, then the middle earners when mortgages increased. Now those on higher incomes are likely to feel the squeeze.

I'm not against private education - I'd absolutely have done it if I could. But I couldn't, so did my best by paying for extracurriculars, books and revision aids. We all do the best we can.

And FWIW I don't resent people who earn more than me. Good for them. But I'm allowed to whine about the whining. It's so tone deaf to rail against the cost of something to people who have less to start with.

I feel like OP started this thread spoiling for a fight and looking for an opportunity to posture.

I don't know why people keep starting threads on this, to be honest. The arguments have all been done to death. People are complaining that the government is introducing this at a time when people are least able to pay and schools are least able to absorb extra costs - not about those other two costs, which obviously aren't anybody else's problem. I don't think it's unreasonable to complain on a public board about a government policy. At this point, it's not achieving much, though, besides getting everybody more wound up on the topic.

The private school debate on MN never ceases to amaze me, and it is riddled full of all sorts of claims from private school parents that are desperate to maintain the privilege that they current hold of not paying VAT on fees, so well, lets take apart some of the most commonly used arguments.

Parents make sacrifices to send their children to private school/lots of average families send their children there. According to data from the UCL Institute for Education the proportion of children being educated privately is close to 0 in the first 9 household income deciles. Less than 1% in each, meaning that a tiny proportion of students come from average background in terms of income. The study found that the % of the cohort attending private school actually only rises to 10% only once into the top 5% of household incomes.

A further UCL study showed that the major reason for children attending from outside of the 10% household incomes was mainly household wealth or grandparental help, NOT scholarships/bursaries. The average bursary only accounts for about 35% of the fee, so this must be covered elsewhere ( also it notes that whilst 1 in 6 children at private schools receive some form of financial aid, outside of the top 10% of incomes 4/5 are not receiving any help as not all scholarships are focused on income.

So no, average families do not make up any significant level of the population of private schools, even when accounting for scholarships. Please do not make the argument that its just good choices/financial prudence that allows parents to make this choice, the data just doesn't back it up ( and no your anecdote here will not count as evidence).

Just a quick aside on scholarships, they aren't really that charitable, its a business transaction, the school gets to get great grades or highly talented musicians/sports/artists that then attract fee paying parents. They also won't disappear if VAT is added because most schools don't use revenue from fees to pay for them, they are paid for out of endowments left to the school. MOST private schools will be keen to retain the charitable status too, so this won't be wound down either. So all the bluff and threats from the private school parents here will amount to nought.

Along with this we need to address the idea that there is going to be a large exodus from private schools to state schools. In reality, an increase in VAT on the average school fee (15,200 according to the IFS) will result in an 3040 PA rise in prices. Sounds high right? Not really, 58 quid a week. If your budget doesn't have enough flex in it that you can't afford 58 quid a week, you were flying way too close to the sun financially, and you couldn't really afford private school in the first place. Sorry to be blunt about it. The vast majority of parents will just pay this, there won't be the exodus predicted.

There are also those who claim that the NEED to send their children to private school because all the local schools are "dire", really? Who are these people that can afford for one child, to spend 91k for one child to be educated but aren't living in catchment areas of good schools? Or who are making the decision to pay this money for schooling whilst not already moving and getting a better return on that cash? The idea that people will then just move into the catchment areas of good state schools and price out parents who otherwise would have afforded it is yet another thinly veiled threat and one which bears not scrutiny. No, there won't be a major uplift in prices for those catchment areas, the people that send their children to private school already live in the nicest areas in town and their children could go to those schools anyway.

Just as an aside, I was at a party once and overheard parents using this justification for why they had to send their child to private school, the local schools were all "hell holes with terrible results". I was horrified to find that they were discussing the OFSTED outstanding rated comprehensive my children and siblings children attended that got great results, had good facilities, and is what mumsnet would describe as a "leafy comprehensive". I suspect many of those who claim they need to send their children to private schools have more than adequate options from the state, they just want to buy their children more privilege, which is fine, but it IS a luxury and you should be paying VAT on it.

The whole "already paying for a place" thing is a also a misnomer, 4.4% ( the amount of the UK budget allocated to schooling) of your income tax amounts to the same amount as the per head spend on a pupil, no, you aren't already paying for a place. The term "net tax contributor" gets thrown around here a lot too, but the data shows that people are very rarely net tax contributors for long, and actually all but 3 % of us die in as net life tax contributors. People doing this also throw up the "pay half of all the tax" as a phrase a lot without counting in the fact that income tax is only about 25% of the entire tax take. Just whilst I'm on this rant, the net tax contributor figure is also a very rough figure, it only measures direct benefits in cash or kind, it doesn't measure anything else, so it isn't really accurate.

To summaries, mumsnet has lots of myths about private schools but for the most part, they are just a load of rubbish that people use to try to protect the privilege they are currently afforded ( and I'm shocked that people who claim to be so clever can use them so badly)

Calling someone an "insufferable prig" and saying that you wouldn't want them as a parent at your dc's school seems pretty personal to me. But it doesn't matter, like I say, the personal insults don't bother me.

As to you not knowing why I mentioned my own life and my dc, I have already explained that it was in direct response to the repeated assertions from the OP and other posters that any comments which were less than sympathetic to the plight of private school families having to pay VAT on school fees must inevitably be motivated by jealousy, resentment or dislike of private school users. I was merely pointing out this is not the case for me, and probably many others like me. I have nothing against people who use private schools, I just think it's reasonable to ask them to pay tax on it and I'm not a fan of all the self-righteous indignation from those who don't seem to have any real awareness of their own tremendous privilege.

You're right. I don't know you, so I've no way of knowing that you're an insufferable prig. Going on about how your children are so fantastic and you could have paid for private education, but didn't is rather priggish behaviour, though. To anybody whose child is doing well anyway, my advice would be, save your money. Some families and some children don't really need what private schools provide. Parents are generally extremely busy at work and looking for all the extras, like sport, drama, wrap-around care, and individual attention that they can't really provide themselves at home. If parents are able to do all that themselves without paying other people that's great. But don't be a prig about it.

Very informative post 👏

Brilliant post.

£58 per week would be easy to find for most families using PE.

£58 a week per child. So £116 per week for 2 children. An extra £432+ per month. In addition to the 10% rise between Sept 23 and 24, which has already taken place in most schools. You don't think that's a lot of money? It's our entire food budget and energy budget combined. Yes, many parents couldn't really afford it. Now they definitely can't. Why do people keep arguing with this? Just like many people have been squeezed by their mortgages going up, people are going to be affected by this. Is this so difficult to understand?

Yes.. I find it frustrating too. We send dd to a private school (against all of our previous principles) because she is autistic and situationally mute but very bright and hardworking, and she’s absolutely thriving in a small, nurturing school. We can do that by still living in the same small house that we bought nearly 20 years ago (and have paid off the mortgage), and living very frugally. I work 6 days a week, and our household income is less than 60k. The mum of one of her (state) primary classmates was really off with me when she found out where my dd was going, said how unfair it was, how we were so lucky, it’s alright for some etc etc. I’d understand her being envious, except that she and her husband bought a huge house that must have cost £700k the previous year, go on foreign holidays, have an expensive car etc etc - it’s just different priorities. Saying all that, I wish private schools didn’t have to exist and the big divide in opportunities does make me uncomfortable - everyone should have access to the same level of education that my dd is enjoying, and it’s not fair that so many with the same difficulties as her are struggling in places that just can’t meet their needs.

So:

Do you both work full time?
Could either of you go for promotion?
Do you have spare bedrooms/reception rooms? If yes, you could downsize.
Do you have gym membership or country club membership?
Do you go on holidays? Weekends away? Day trips to activities that cost money? Have hobbies?
Do you run big cars? Are they newer than 5 years old?
Do you have parents that can help out?
Could you remortgage?
Could you downsize or move to a cheaper area?
Could you cut back on TV subscriptions or get cheaper mobile phone contracts?
Do you always buy budget brands?
Could you use less energy? Eat less? Eat out less? Less take aways?
Could you and your husband cut out a meal or two?

You may think some of these are outrageous but this is what lots of people have to do, just to put food on the table. If using PE is a priority you will find the money. If not then you are privileged enough to live in country with free (at the point of use) education.

Im sorry that this is creating uncertainty for a small group of people but this is an homeopathic dose of what many families face constantly. Parents (me included) using PE are part of a group of people that are the most privileged in the world. We are best resourced to cope with change and uncertainty as are our children.

Yes good post Aladdin. I think private school parents have every right to comment and moan but think frankly thats best done in their private school parent WhatsApp groups. They are in a bubble and by virtue of paying those fees are in the top tiny percentage of the wealthiest families. In our tertiary educated middle class friendship group only 2 families out of about 20 have gone private.

In the real world where a significant proportion of the population are really struggling and most even decent earning parents couldn’t even begin to afford to send two children private these threads are absolutely cringe and utterly tone deaf.

Have you considered increasing your earnings? Maybe you could take in some ironing, that should cover it.

You don't think people are already doing these things? Go for a promotion. Why didn't I think of that before. Thank goodness you came along to sort my life out for me.

Sunek himself said , to paraphrase, if you work hard, its your choice where you send your child to school.

A classic Tory bollocks theory that higher earners like to believe, that they have worked SO MUCH HARDER than the plebs who do not earn as much as them.

That is one of the many reasons there is so much vitriol around private schooling. Whether many will admit it, its elitist.

If you cant afford the VAT raise, well....I guess you just didnt work hard enough...right?

This is the essence of it. You can dislike private schools all you like. But right now if you have a child in a state school, it doesn’t really affect you. If 50% of people pull their children out of the private schools and put them in to the state school system (which is woefully underfunded and there is a
teacher shortage) what do you think is going to happen?!

This will impact the education for all children. Labour need to find the money from elsewhere.