Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

I’m of the opinion that having private schooling available allows state schools to be shit. Because people with money can find an alternative. Same with private healthcare. Without the option of private schools people would have to force their local state schools to be better.

Parents who are forceful, get shit done and perhaps have some spare cash to donate to the school will be a power to improve the state option. Which is then better for everyone.

Perhaps the parents who are campaigning and complaining now about this vat inclusion should have been campaigning and complaining about their poor state options in the first place instead of paying a business, and schools are businesses, for the service.

When you budget for private education from Reception you’re told to ensure you build in a 100% buffer — ie be prepared for fees to double at some point in your child’s education. So most prep parents will have that. But an immediate increase of 20% will definitely eat into it & if that occurs schools will not be able to increase fees in the same way they did before and still expect parents to take it.

In the grand scheme of shit going on at the moment whether someone can afford private school fees or not is not really high on my list of things.

BUT VAT on school fees won't just affect children or middle class families or rich, it will have a knock on effect to those who work in schools. Parents not being able to afford the extra VAT mean mess children which mean less people needed, meaning less jobs. Many of those working in schools from cooks, to cleaners to gardeners to teachers to house masters/mistresses to matrons will be affected. Most of whom aren't bloody rich.

We had and continue to have smaller class sizes anyway as the birth rate where we live is under the national average and has been declining for a bit. My DC’s schools offer loads of sport clubs and clubs at Junior school and secondary not that my DD is particularly interested. I compare this with my youngest’s friend who went to the £30000 a year school in year 7 and I don’t see the value, of course the extra curricular stuff is quite prominent at the private school but DD’s friend is forced to do their things as her parents need to work and want value for money. DD’s friend says she feels poor amongst her peers (she isn’t) because of the horses and land they own and holidays all of the time. In contrast my DD goes to a school where she is going to the park or beach after school on summer days, I think that is pretty important for development. My 6th former son is the same he is looking at the same RG unis as my privately educated nieces and nephews, i don’t see the value personally.

The more you post, the more you prove what insufferable prig you are.

I'm not offended that you're not seething with jealousy. I never said you were or should be. I said that a lot of people probably resent that there is some unfairness in the system, which is fair enough really.

You don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what kind of state school a rich child goes to. They will not be relying on the school for anything - all the GCSE / ALevel prep / sports activities / socialising would be done outside of it. In some cases wealthy parents even pay for exams privately earlier on to make the load in year 11 easier for kids to manage.

These parents will not be doing anything to improve the school.

What actually needs to happen for ‘more motivated parents’ in State is to get rid of the State Grammar sector entirely. That would push the pushy families into comps but Labour would never do that because that’s what it’s MPs use for their kids.

As for the suggestion of ‘hypocrisy’ from OP - we have the funds for private school ( obvs we’d have to ‘strive’ ) but don’t believe in private schooling so chose not to use it.

Out of our friendship groups only a handful have ‘gone private’ despite most being able to afford it - some easily, some it would be a stretch but do-able - for similar reasons.
They either don’t like the idea of 2-tier education or don’t think it’s with the money or a bit of both.
Or perhaps it’s because many of our friends are also WC background, but through state education and jobs now are living a very MC lifestyle as are their kids BUT they have decided not to pull the ladder up behind them…

I agree. There are lots of ways that much more money could be raised for spending on education that would be more equitable. In fact, you could simply generate the funds as a form of fiscal stimulus. You'd have to ask Starmer & Reeves why they're not considering either options?

Not according to the report by the Adam Smith Institute I linked to earlier.

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/applying-vat-to-independent-school-fees-could-cost-as-much-as-16-billion?format=amp

The £1.5 billion figure comes from an IFS report which estimates between 3 and 7% of kids will leave the private sector - which the IFS have said is probably and underestimate.

If you care about improving equality in education you should be against this policy because the sums don’t add up on this one I’m afraid.

Such a shame your parents didn’t love you enough to go out and get a 100k a year job to send you to private school which might have taught you how to do maths!

(For the avoidance of doubt that last sentence is clearly a joke from a former state school pupil with no kids so no skin in the game on this one.)

This isn’t true though it’s what someone maybe wants to believe to make it a level playing field between those who send their children to state school and those who pay for private school, it’s a morally more comfortable position to take and it pretends there is no advantage. For a start, parents in state school have to work like parents in private school and they definitely do rely on exam prep at the school. I anecdotally don’t know anyone who has paid for early exams on mass which is the way you are describing it. Extra curricular like playing a musical instrument can be completely subsidised depending on your income or due to cuts to the Arts in state schools and lack of provision; you would seek out private lessons if you can afford them.

We have the lottery system where I live so comprehensive schools are the choice no Grammar system and no postcode advantage, after campaigning by some parents they even got rid of sibling priority for secondary places so it is pretty egalitarian!

It's a shame you can't read. Where have I said I supported the 15%? Quoting figures from a decidedly not independent neoliberal lobbying group isn't the win you think it is.

It's a shame my parent's taxes were wasted on paying for your education.

Where did I mention 15%?

You claimed I supported the VAT policy. As well as insulting my late parents.

VAT is 20%.

I also clearly stated that was a joke. The fact that your parents are no longer around is not relevant.

Clearly not a fan of engaging in a discussion based on facts so let’s make it personal eh?

I bet Christmas is loads of fun in your house!

Meanwhile nobody gives a fuck about kaiden and Kira-Mae who also have SEN but who's parents would never hope to have enough money to send them to private school. Everybody should be agitating for better state schools not bitching about having to have less holidays a year so they can send their kids to private school.

Come round and find out, you're more than welcome.

A well educated population is a key driver in driving a nation forward. Better educated tend to get higher paying jobs which in turn gets injected into the economy. I don’t think many people on here can see or understand the larger macroeconomic picture.

As a high earner myself who went to state school (and worse still grew up on a council estate) , I got a great state education that resulted in a degree from a RG uni and so I am educated enough to know that people from all backgrounds deserve the opportunity to have a better education and therefore the chance to get a job like mine

Some people on this thread would benefit from looking at the excellent work people like Sophie Pender and similar are doing to try and drive more social mobility

No matter how you cut your cloth, money buys privilege and it is pointless to deny it. Whether parents spend money on private education, moving house to an area with good schools, tutors, extracurricular activities etc it gives their children an advantage over children who don't have such things. I have done all of the above at various points and as a result my children have had far more opportunities than I did. They're privileged - I know it and they know it. Heavens, just having a nice warm home, plenty to eat, access to books, computers and a home environment that facilitates learning gives them a massive advantage over many children before we get anywhere near a school.
I'm actually not wildly enthusiastic about the VAT policy. It doesn't affect me personally, I'm just not convinced of the benefit to the public purse. And on an individual level there will be children whose education is disrupted as a result. Sadly they will most likely be those who are just managing to afford schools at the lower end of the price range and that will include parents who have had their hands forced by poor SEN provision, bullying etc. I don't imagine too many of the parents who are paying £42k per pupil per year at the school my DC's cousins attend will be withdrawing their children and sending them to the local comp.
But in the great scheme of things I think a lot more children in this country stand to benefit from a change of government than are likely to be harmed by VAT on private education so I shall be voting Labour even though I don't agree with absolutely all their policies including this one. I do have sympathy for parents who are worried about the impact on their own children and I don't condem parents who use private education. They're doing what they think is best for their children, which when all said and done is what most of us want to do within the limits of our resources. I happened to decide that private school wasn't what's best for my children but I respect other people's choices.
However, a lot of the posts from private school parents on these threads have been tone deaf to put it mildly and have done nothing to win hearts and minds. In particular the sanctimonious "but we prioritise our children's education, we make sacrifices, do you?" type comments piss me right off to be honest.

It is when there is a free alternative that 93% of the population use.

I will admit I don't know much about the new VAT rules and how it impacts private school fees etc... However if your sending your child to a private school then you are not middle class earners in my opinion.

We are in the middle of a cost of living crisis so if you can afford to send your child to a school that has a £15k a year price tag, pay the costs of rising mortgages, bills, food etc... I would say you more fall into the high earner category compared to the rest of the UK.

I do however see your point that if a child was already attending the school and this new rule makes the school unaffordable that is sad for the child because it isn't there fault, but the same could be said for rising mortgage rates, food costs etc..

its a shame but unfortunately when people are able to afford more than others it does tend to bring the worst out of people. A lot of people don't like the unfairness of private education when in reality all children deserve to get a good education and not only those who can afford it.

Disclaimer - I have not read the whole thread. But would like to add my thoughts.
I think parents who send their children to private school should totally own it.

You've made a choice, no need to justify it to yourself or anyone else. No need to say you are paying taxes for the state education system which you are choosing not to use thereby paying twice. What a load of old cobblers; you've not doing it for altruistic reasons, you're doing it as you think it is the best for your children.

Equally for most people school fees cannot be found by not changing your car every 3 years, only taking holidays in the UK and shopping at Lidl. If you have more than one child there is no amount of scrimping and saving that will enable 'middle class' parents to send their children private.

While I think the adding of VAT on school fees is a cheap political stunt by Labour which will probably cause more chaos that the revenue it will generate, it is probably fair that VAT is imposed on something that is essentially a luxury for the vast majority of the population.

Why do I think this? As an immigrant to this country with no university education and DH who left school with no quals we sent both our DC's through top private (incase of DS public) schools. We didn't do it for any other reasons than to give them what we saw as a top education and access to things we could never have given them. Yes at times it was a struggle but I'm not kidding myself it was a choice comparable to heating or eating. We were v aware how fortunate we were and when it did seem tough just reminded ourselves it was a problem of privilege.

Yes it paid off for us as we now have two happy and successful young adults who are making their way in the world but I do wish parents who choose the private route just shut up and owned it. Tough if VAT goes on fees, tough if other people don't like it, tough if people on Mumsnet disagree with you - it's your life, your choices who cares what others think?

Worst.

I'm with you OP, we choose private education and are middle income.
Any discussion on MN brings out the politics of envy, race to the bottom posters.
If anyone thinks an additional 20% would be spent on state schools they're kidding themselves with Labour's delusions.

Not sure why you think people believing you should be taxed fairly equates to them wanting you to 'suffer'...

The luxury is the ability to choose a different education for your child. That’s the luxury.