VOTE Labour and

[DistinguishedSocialCommentator]

AIBU to feel this will happen un a Labour government???

From what I see and IMO, the Labour lot on the whole believe in aspirations but only for themselves

Older people will vividly recall the the hideous tax rates under labour - between 1974 and 1979 the paye tax rate was up to 80%. Then there was a tax on top of that for so-called higher earners of 18%. This equated to 98%

I don't trust Labour, nor do I trust the Torties. Liberals, IMO they will sell your soul down the river to get a sniff at number 10

As I said I don't trust any of them. But if you are working, worked hard, been prudent with your money and have savings, decent private pensions in the pipeline and possibly a property or two that you have worked for, for your retirement and not wasting your money and want to leave some behind for your kids, GC etc rather than throw it away on the hand to mouth life - then if Labour comes into power, you are totally and truly F'd

Labour rants they will do this and the other - the last time they almost bankrupted England,

If you are working hard being prudent with your money and made sacrifices to send your kids to a private school as many Labour MP's do on pay at almost 100k - they are eager to put VAT on this part of education. The MPS whose pay is a couple of times above average pay will be able to afford it - will you??

Me, my family, relatives have all worked hard, not on benefits, never lived in social housing and not thrown our money away but been prudent to be self-sufficient and pay our taxes to support our country. If you are like us, then trust me, under Labour, you will be shafted hard.

I'm not sure if I will vote tory or an independent but this circus of Tories and Labour taking turns to lie to the nation is not on and yes, most politicians lie and will lie and say anything to get into number 10 and if your feel that is not true, then you must be on another planet

No. They opposed any childcare for middle class parents. Only for those who don't work and on low income. Admitted to not having a plan -not a priority.

You think I would be saying anything critical towards their childcare policies if they had a better plan then a broken one we have now ?

@Bibi12 define middle class - I mean, I remember having two in nursery back in the early 2000s and it was horrendous. It ate up two thirds of my wage. It's worse now.

But if there isn't infinite money, and there isn't, then it makes sense that support should be targeted at those who need it most. That means those on the lowest income, and in the case of families not in work, children who are in a state of socio-economic deprivation. Families who don't work are statistically more likely to be in poverty, and their children are at higher risk of serious negative outcomes. Having free childcare mitigates that.

If you want Scandinavian style childcare funding (I do, even though mine are grown up) then you'll have to live with Scandinavian level tax.

This is from April

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68723552

Oh I remember those "deprived children " who's mums used free childcare hours to do their nails and haircuts while I was struggling to put food on the table after childcare costs. Silly me for choosing to work.
I know things changed now with Universal Credit, which by the way subsidies some childcare costs for low income families.

Many countries have lower taxes then UK yet provide Scandinavian style childcare. It's rather a norm. That money goes back to economy in form or taxes and VAT purchases. It increases productivity and lifts people of benefits.

And women's issues should not always be at the back of priority list.

Yes they had to change their mind.

As I said they WERE opposed universal childcare. I'm aware they changed their mind as it would be a weak spot for them before elections.

Oh, I see - you're one of those people who talk about benefit scroungers who get their nails done and have giant TVs and Sky and all that. Pardon me for thinking otherwise, I know where you're coming from now. 🙄

To qualify for childcare support in the UK, parents must be working and making NMW at the bottom end, or at the top end they cannot make more than £200k between them.

So if your household income is less than that, you are entitled to childcare support. Seems pretty generous to me, I got zippo until DC1 turned two. And yes, we both worked full time.

Where are these low tax countries where you get free or super cheap childcare?

Where are these low tax countries where you get free or super cheap childcare?

They are in their home country.

Ah so many assumptions.
I actually was a single mother on benefits working 16 hours as that's all I could do without losing too many benefits and being able to live. No, I didn't consider myself a scrounger. I didn't chose not to work. I was entitled to the support and I received it.

Before that both me and my husband worked full time. Both working class jobs. We rented and I calculated we would have been better off if I quit my work but I didn't.
Despite being worse off then people on benefits we were too rich for any support with anything.
But maybe you haven't experienced working poverty, lucky you.

Oh and if you are CHOSING not work even if you can because you can't be bothered, your child is too precious for nursery and you want a luxury of being SAHM and hanging out with friends when other people foot the bill, if you and your partner pretend to work part time but hide cash in hand to get more benefits then yeah- you're a scrounger.

@Bibi12 maybe you should look up the requirements for getting free childcare? Because according to the .gov site you don't get it if you don't work. If you're on £90k each however - you do.

And the reason I made assumptions about you is the language you used - maybe don't go on about people on benefits and their nails and hair, because that is the language used by benefit bashers.

I know what working poverty is like, thanks. My late husband and I always worked full time and I still remember the terror when the car or the washing machine made an odd noise and threatened to need an expensive repair.

this circus of Tories and Labour taking turns to lie to the nation is not on and yes, most politicians lie and will lie and say anything to get into number 10

You finally said something I don't totally disagree with 🙌

It was before 30 hours childcare. And before universal credit when people often ended up better off not working (precisely not wanting to work) and many didn't declare income. Don't attack me for assumptions because I've seen too much. Including nails and expensive holidays twice a year.
That's why I used quotation marks for "vulnerable children ".
My oldest is in secondary school and I'm doing well now. I don't need childcare either.

I'm sorry if my language was offensive but if you look at the previous posts I've been attacked from right, left and centre.

Regardless who we vote for, politics should not be treated like a religion. We are allowed to critice bad policies and attitudes even if they belong to party we do vote for.

I acknowledged Labour should invest more in public sector then I moaned about what I don't like about them. Which wasn't much!

I outlined all the facts which I exesively researched and I'm allowed to my opinion. I welcome other opinions based on actual knowledge. I'm happy to learn about other perspectives. Huge holes in knowledge and understanding has been shown.

Instead look at all the nasty comments I received. Assumptions, strawman arguments attacking positions, which I don't even have, calling me a Tory when I'm not even supporting or voting tory.

I gave my home country as an example,that a government can invest in education, childcare, free university fees without super high taxes and VAT on private schools. Meaning - its a matter of priorities. Some countries just see their people as an asset worth investing in.

And UK taxes are not low anyway. Then there is council tax etc.

I have been told that's in "my country " and I'm stopping people from voting for what's best for "their country ".
Glad I wasn't told that after 25 years here I should go back where I belong because I'm apparently interfering with British democracy! It's bonkers.

Everyone should vote for whoever they want.

Under Truss the Tories tanked the economy and there was an emergency bank of England bailout that has cost us at least £30 billion. Borrowing at its highest. Huge debt. The Tories have been an economic disaster zone.

I actually was a single mother on benefits working 16 hours as that's all I could do without losing too many benefits and being able to live.

When I was a single mum I worked 40 hours a week so I didn’t have to claim benefits. 🤷‍♀️

Not everyone can be in top 2% earners to support themselves with 2 full sets of nursery fees in South East as a married let alone single mother.

Not everyone works in the office and can find full time 9-5 job around small children.

I was only receiving benefits for a year before getting 30 hours but regardless you shouldn't looked down on mums who are in less fortunate situation, which are many on that site.

It's not just one country. Maybe educate yourself about the world ?

Maybe, try showing some understanding to the people who live in the country that you are attacking in your posts.

You claim to have received benefits here, but say you are not like the scroungers who also have benefits here, yet you don't seem to realise that they are like you.

Your arguments don't stack up for me, they sound like something I would expect to hear from someone reading from a script, there is little depth and understanding of the words that you are using. Your use of the words home country cemented this for me and in the context used sounded as though you had never been here. If you are genuine then I apologise for thinking you are another paid poster to push the tory party line.

It would really help if you provided some examples. And I agree that it is deeply unpleasant to use benefit bashing language when you have been on benefits yourself as a single parent. It reeks of the 'deserving poor' rhetoric so beloved of the Tories, hence people thinking you are one.

Please point us in the direction of the low tax, low cost childcare countries. The ones I can think of with low cost childcare are also high tax.

UK childcare costs are the highest in Europe and one of the most expensive in the World. It’s a disgrace and no political party seems to want to tackle it.

Germany has very low cost childcare and you don’t pay higher rate tax until you earn 277k euros. Also, those of us that are being pushed into the ridiculous 60% tax bracket have nothing to fear from Scandinavian level income taxes. It would be those on lower incomes that would pay more tax.

You have been purposely creating strawman argument - some distorted version of my beliefs, ideas, voting preferences which are not true.
You'd like to blame in on me by saying I attacked people when it was me being relentlessly attacked and mocked by some other posters.
Why did others managed to stay civil, ask genuine questions and present their arguments? It's not that difficult.

You've been cherry picking what I wrote to paint me in bad light.
All parties should be allowed to to be questioned on their merits. All of them. But I've noticed this always results in abuse. You're only allowed to criticise Tories. They are irrelevant now anyway as they won't be in power.

No, people who CHOSED not to look for work at all while on old unreformed LEGACY benefits (not UC) for years and years because and I quote "I can't be bothered ", "I want to enjoy my children and friends ". People who CHEATED the system to buy luxuries are NOT like me. We differ greatly in our attitudes to life, values and work ethics. And our financial situation differed massively back then, not in my favour.
I'm using capital letters just to help you not miss nuances you'd so eager to ignore, not to shout at you.

You have also completely missed the fact those comments were made in the context of my husband and me then both working full time and after nursery costs living in poverty yet being too "rich" for any support and worse off then we would have been on benefits. Then Labour proposing to extend even more free hours nursery to people who did not work rather then to those who were in full time jobs and needed to use childcare would obviously be personal to me.

I have never attacked people for simply receiving benefits and needing support, EVER. You could be pro -benefits and anti - abuse of the system.
The benefits are completely different now so it's not even a current issue.
I actually organise clothes parcels for single mums on UC who struggle to find work. I'm sorry you find it so hard to put me in a box and make me into an easy target.

Yes, I received help when my husband died and I was left with 2 small children, after paying a lot into the system for many years of full time work. I also stopped taking benefits after a year when 30 hours kicked in and I was able to pull myself up and didn't need them.

Many countries without long history of mass immigration treat subsided childcare as important infrastructure for increasing revenue not as a drain on revenue that has to be paid for by extreme taxation. Scandinavian taxes are not high because of childcare.
You're forgetting rest of Europe has also lower adult child ratio and many public centres so nurseries are cheaper to run in a first place.

Any funding for childcare goes back to the economy by lifting people of benefits, gains in income tax, VAT on products consumed, higher productivity and stable birth rate.
Childcare is not a spending hole , it's an investment that with right management of economy doesn't require Scandinavian taxation. At least Corbyn was able to understand that Instead of convincing women they have to always be at the back of priority list.

Many countries see childcare as a way of gaining tax by encouraging women into work, lifting people of benefits, increasing productivity and supporting economy.
Not every government sees childcare as a spending hole.
Also rest of Europe has cheaper childcare and more public nurseries so the sector doesn't requires huge funding to make it affordable.

I have never used benefit bashing language. I have a right to criticise people who made comments to my face about not bothering to look for work or people who cheated the system to buy luxuries, leaving their kids in free nursery to do their nails, while I was working full time and lived in poverty after nursery fees becauseI I decided to wrok along my husband instead of claiming legacy benefits.
I have a right to say it was not right. I have a right to talk about my experience. We still have free speech luckily although some don't like it and will silence others by calling them racists, xenophobic, benefit bashing based on microscopic fragment of their opinion taken completely out of context.

I never critised anyone for simply receiving benefits. EVER! It didn't happen.

Me being on benefits for a year when my husband died while ALSO working all the hours government allowed me to work before plunging me into Victorian poverty is irrelevant. That's what benefits are for and receiving them for one year out of 25 years of working full time doesn't equate me to people who made benefits and cheating the system a way of life.

I'm talking about before 30 hours childcare, before Universal Credit and benefit reforms.
When Labour insisted 30 hours for 3 year olds should go to people who don't work insisted I took it personally because I remember me and my husband CHOSING to work full time while others messing with the system, hiding income getting free childcare spaces while I was in poverty after nursery fees and two salaries making us too rich for everything. It was demoralising.

I never ever critised anyone for needing benefits and UC is completely different anyway. I do apologise if it came out that way. I feel like my posts are too long anyway and all the attacks I received leave me with little energy to be diplomatic.