To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

That room was for children aged 3 months to 2 years. How can that be acceptable? I would have thought there should be a separate room for young babies and then another room for older toddlers.

Why? Mixed age range is more like what a normal mother might have. Its easier to meet different needs than to have 3 babies who all want held - you can be chatting to a toddler while you hold/feed the baby and a preschooler can be playing independently in the same room.

There is at my DS’ nursery. There’s a baby room, toddler room etc.

DS was in the baby room until he was consistently walking and then settling in sessions for the toddler room started before a full transition.

I have been in a nursery, yes. I've worked in them.

Nursery care is 'institutionalised' in the sense that it runs to an external timetable that is not based on any individual child's needs.

Breakfast is at a set time. It will be a set food. They will eat it in a set way. Then nappies will be changed. Then a pre-determined activity will start. Then snack time. Then nap time. Then outside time and so on throughout the day. Nursery operates exactly the same whether your child is there or not and that's because your child's individual needs are not a factor in their decision making. That's institutionalised care.

It was nap time in that nursery and that baby wouldn't nap to their schedule.

Little Genevieve was abused.

i work in a fantastic nursery. We have supernumerary staff. Every single staff member has a paediatric first aid qualification and we have no unqualified staff. no unsupervised sleep. The babies in our nursery are so loved by us all..... they really could not have better nursery care whilst their parents are working.

please don't let the thankfully comparatively tiny number of horrendous incidents and settings spoil what so many of us are very proud of.

It makes me terribly sad to think of little babies (as in < 6m) in childcare. It was hard enough leaving mine PT when they turned a year old.

It's much better for babies to stay in the same room for 12-18 months than have to move every few months - nurseries that understand and prioritise attachment are better for babies.
Personally I see nurseries that disrupt babies every few months as a red flag.

9 months old should be able to eat chopped food

I think it's too young. I did baby led weaning and there's no way my DC were eating 'chopped' food at 9 months. They were eating finger food, which meant they were in control of how much they bit off. And babies who are fed puréed food - surely at 9 months, while they might have moved on to more lumpy food, they wouldn't be eating anything chopped.

I think you're talking absolute rubbish.

I would in no way have wanted my baby to be dragged out strapped in a car seat 3/4 times a day for school dropoffs and pickups. Neither did I want them traipsing round the post office or the supermarket during the time they were being minded. They had me and their dad for that.

Babies don't give a shite whether they are with other babies or a range of ages of children. My almost 2 year old was a nightmare to keep away from my new baby. Poor child spent a lot of time on the kitchen worktop to keep them out of reach!!!

A lot of a baby's day is spent sleeping and eating. Anyone can facilitate that. They aren't just cooped up as you seem to think. Mine were in beautiful bright airy rooms with a regularly changed range of toys, and a beautiful back garden with all manner of things to do. Unless the weather was awful they were out there every day, coats, hats etc on.

WTF does a baby need to "be out in the world"??? Parents do that!! What a load of utter tosh! And surely ALL of our children should be in "childproof rooms" or we are actually negligent!!

My children are adults as I have said. I can't tell between them and their friends who had a SAHP, who went to nursery, who had a childminder, who was "out in the world" (!!!), who was breastfed, who was not, who wasn't toilet trained until they were 11!

The consistency in the early years comes from the parents. Time in childcare is only a part of their life experience. Quite honestly, I don't believe my kids would have got to do the half of the stuff they did in nursery anywhere else, including at home. They were painting from when they were tiny. Mine all loved the beautiful toy kitchen and they had so many bits for it. I couldn't drag mine out some evenings, they were so absorbed. They had a lady come in every week to do singing and dancing with them. All sorts of age appropriate crafting. I don't remember the half of it.

Do you think a cm is doing that when her time is spent running about after other peoples' kids? TBF my last lady did when she had everyone picked up, but the other two absolutely didn't.

You could not be more wrong.

the updated EYFS supports those of us that focus on in the moment planning grounded completely in a child's individual interests. Complete free flow play and a holistic approach with things like rolling meal times give children vast amounts of autonomy whilst invitations and provocations around their individual needs and interests, created by hugely passionate, qualified and loving individuals create a learning environment based completely on the needs of the individual.

modern nurseries are very far removed from the little schools of old thank goodness.

And what is wrong with that? Don't we all have set times for things? Especially if you also have older children? So parents are also institutionalising their children by having them in a routine? News to me.

You must have worked in crap nurseries then. Ours let babies sleep as and when they wanted. They did have a sleep time for toddlers and older but it got them into a good routine that we followed at home for consistency.

Just to counteract this, DC1 was at a childminder until 3 and then they went to a nursery until they started school. Whilst the childminder was perfect up until that age, they really would have struggled with the school transition if they had not had that year and a half of nursery beforehand. It got them used to lots of kids, loud noises, different rules etc

Agreed- i think a good childminder is ideal under 3, but preschool type settings are good for 1-2 years before school

I haven't said having a stay at home parent is best.

I said the evidence shows that one-on-one or small group care is best. That's it. Just that. It's not too broad a statement, it's a statement supported by research into child development.

I think the childcare available should be considerably better than it is. I don't think people should necessarily stop using childcare. We should stop saying nursery is 'good' for babies though because that's untrue.

Sorry but why should all nurseries be tired with the same brush just because this sick monster is in the news. Try looking at panorama at the scandals affecting boys in prep schools - they were 10-11. Shall we say schools are dangerous too because of a few sickos?
Who do you want to look after babies then? The flower fairies? Because most 9 month olds I know need caring for, they can't just be left at home while their parents work and not all have a willing GP to hand.

Breakfast is at a set time. It will be a set food. They will eat it in a set way. Then nappies will be changed. Then a pre-determined activity will start. Then snack time. Then nap time. Then outside time and so on throughout the day. Nursery operates exactly the same whether your child is there or not and that's because your child's individual needs are not a factor in their decision making. That's institutionalised care.

You don’t appear to understand the difference between institutionalised care and a routine @NuffSaidSam

Tomorrow I have both my children. They’ll have breakfast at around 7. We will get dressed, brush teeth, go out to an activity, come home for lunch, DD will nap after lunch, I will do an activity with DS, DD will wake, they’ll have a snack, free play for a while, then have dinner, a bit of TV, bath and books and stories.

That’s not institutionalised care at all. It’s embarrassing you think it is.

You don't need to be sad. I had to leave mine at 5 months, 7 months and 10 months. It was actually better in some respects as they hadn't got to the 'making strange' stage. Mat leave was 18 weeks. I'd already stretched it out as I had to be signed off sick from work because I was breastfeeding and still recovering from c/sections.

They were absolutely fine.

You were indeed fortunate to be able to do that.

Hard disagree. Mine thrived.

I agree, I think people find admitting this uncomfortable though. Personally I think it has a lot to do with the current issues with older children having so many difficulties and CAMHS being overwhelmed.

I think there is far too much variation in children and families needs to make, yet again, such a strong statement.

Many families would prefer a nursery setting for lots of reasons, many of which have been outlined here. I suspect they are in a much better position to understand what is 'best' for them than you are.

Jesus Christ. Did you actually just blame that on nursery care????!!!

My children had no difficulties, no CAMHS etc.

I don't have anything to "admit" or feel "uncomfortable" about!

Sure, you can think what you want.

You can get a book on child development and find out it's all true. Or continue to believe it's all rubbish.

I don't really care either way.

How many do you 'permit' in a "small group" then?

I far preferred my children to have care appropriate to their age with other children of a similar age, than competing for care with children of a range of ages!

The biggest indicator of quality in a nursery is the adult - child relationships.
Much more important than whether the toys are wooden or plastic, if there is a set or rolling snack time, separate sleep room or free flow garden access.

The two things I would look for in a nursery for under 2s is small group size - max 9 babies but ideally 6 - and babies staying in the same room, with the same adults for as long as possible.

Frequent changes of room/carers (non-mobile then crawlers then walkers) and big groups ( 12 or 15 babies with 4 or 5 adults) are things I would avoid.

Big rooms with loads of babies, even with adults and floor space meeting minimum legal ratios, are hugely more stressful for both adults and children.
Being in a state of stress all day, dealing with lots of noise, is awful for the staffs' mental health so cannot be great for babies either.

I am hardly going to read up on child development now that my kids are in their fucking 20s, and I still call BS.

Some are.

Many, many are not.

And this is no fault of the staff btw, I'm not having a go at them. I don't doubt most are doing their absolute best in difficult circumstances.

I feel that staying home with a well rounded mentally well parent is preferable to childcare before 3. Alas I was not mentally well and we needed me working full time to pay the mortgage.

For me, a nursery was safer - more eyes - but obviously different from a childminder setting. But, especially for the under 3s, schedules were loose. Naps were when they're tired, lunch time would be moved as each child requires around naps - not by the clock. Back up dinners were offered for fussy eaters or individual tastes. My daughter is 2, and while her big brother was at school today, she went to the park and the library, while me and her dad worked. She did painting, played in the garden, and counted butterflies.

Even the best nursery is not perfect, but sadly this is the world we live in now, to keep a roof over our heads...