To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

@BusyCM it isn’t necessarily a criticism but that can be problematic for babies needing multiple naps a day.

That was the main drawback to our childminder. The day was structured around preschool children who had one nap in the middle of the day whereas DD is on two: morning and afternoon with roughly three hour wake windows. So if she wakes at 6am she would want a nap at 9am - in time for the school run, then fall asleep on the way back and be disturbed when they all went to their morning activity, then be woken again to do the school run in the afternoon.

It’s exactly the same when she’s home with me as she has a nearly four year old brother, but that’s why it’s nice for her days in childcare to be a proper rest. There’s nothing wrong at all with saying ‘actually this is not for me at this time.’ It doesn’t mean you or my CM was doing anything ‘wrong’, just that what was needed wasn’t quite what was there.

School and playgroup runs usually

I don’t feel guilty about either of my children going to nursery. There are tangible benefits ghat reach further than the immediate bonding process. Poverty is by far the biggest cause of misery, irrespective of horrific tragedies such as this. Without two parents working, many more children would grow up in poverty.

My little DD definitely tags along to a certain extent. I don’t think she minds and in fact somewhat enjoys the chaos of soft play, role play centres, library rhyme times and toddler groups. She’s accessing them on her terms now but for a while she was a bemused observer!

It was based around what the older one would enjoy though. I don’t think that it’s wrong to point that out.

I used to go to a playgroup with my youngest child and there were a group of childminders who’d be there most weeks. They used to sit there the whole time drinking coffee and chatting and completely ignoring the children they were meant to be looking after!

but these childminders are out & about in the local community, they’re in full view of other people - people not remotely connected to them.
that’s a positive for me.
and maybe the children are happily playing? that’s what a playgroup is for isn’t it?

OK that's a specific ossie with your cms routine and your baby. It's a but odd to discount a whole type of childcare due to that. You wouldn't discount all nurseries because you didn't like one nurseries routine, would you? There's plenty of cms who don't do school runs (like me) or whatever else is the issue.

Thats what I'm trying to say, I hate this blanket nurseries =good, childminders =bad.

Or pureed the food available like they'd promised the parent they would?

So choose one who doesn't do them? Plenty around

@BusyCM , but it isn’t, is it?

Most childminders - I realise not all, but most - do school runs. And don’t we keep hearing the wonderful thing about them is that they go out: to groups and to parks and so on, which is great but not necessarily for babies on two naps a day.

It might work fine if you have a baby that just nods off anywhere, and DD used to but now has FOMO. Or are you telling me you’re actually in all the time, as that isn’t what you claimed earlier.

But TBH the ‘bit odd’ comment is the problem summed up. There is nothing wrong with saying ‘a childminder isn’t for us at this time.’ To say this makes me a ‘bit odd’ is dismissive and doesn’t really reassure. I think it’s perfectly valid that given my DD has two days in the week where she doesn’t nap well given her brother’s routine, I prioritise her having her own quiet space for the remaining three. It’s absolutely fine to say ‘yes that’s understandable’ and leave it at that

Or - I know - respect the posters decision to go with a different childcare setting?

I agree with you.

One thing I like about nurseries are the rooms which are based on their age and needs. DS is in the toddler room now and their naps are based on toddlers, not trying to do the school run or entertain a preschooler at soft play.

There’s pros and cons to both settings. The sleep situation at nursery is a big pro for me.

Of course, nursery is fine.

But what's better is one-on-one or small group care where individual needs can be met, out in the world. Obviously, lots of people don't have a choice and that's not their fault. They're doing what they need to for their family. We all understand that.

But what we have to stop doing is pretending that nursery is good for babies or that they need it or that a baby being 'clingy' to their main caregiver is a problem to save the feelings of working parents. It's an incredibly difficult line to walk.

More babies die by the hand of their parents than nursery workers. And even more so by the hand of a step parent.
babies die in cars, accidents, on days out, in their sleep and many other ways.
luckliy, there events are all very rare and shocking.
nursey, statistically, is probably safer than many other situations that babies end up in.

Why do we ‘have’ to do that, @NuffSaidSam ?

I don’t think we ‘have’ to do anything except choose the childcare that fits most comfortably with us.

In the majority of cases, separation is harder for the mother than the child.

Yes but we all know that isn't your motive @Porpoising , This thread isn't even about childminders but people can't help themselves,. so you carry on with your agenda and I'll wish you a good night.

I’ve never come across a decent childminder.

My experience when my dc were little was cm’s who went to toddler groups where the older mindees were pretty much supervised by the other parents while they left the younger babies were left strapped into their buggies while the cm’s chatted amongst themselves.
One who left a baby in the car out of sight while she dropped the other one at preschool.

Standing in the park slagging off the children they mind as well as the parents.

I’m sure there are decent childminders out there, but IME they’re in the minority.

People expect better of nursery because they think that more adults means more accountability, so why has no-one else been charged?

I genuinely have no idea what motive you are talking about.

What would my motive be? To put people off using childminders? Why?

People can and should use the childcare that most suits them. Their way of life, their priorities and their bank balance!

If I only had one child, and her two days with me were full of peaceful sleep then I would be far more likely to say that disturbed sleep for part the week doesn’t matter. As it is, that isn’t what’s happening.

It’s fine to say ‘this suits me’. What isn’t fine is to keep insisting that no matter what posters say, you believe they’ve made the wrong choice. Nurseries can suit some people really well. Childminders can also suit some people really well. Respect that and stop pushing YOUR agenda

Why do we have to stop pretending that nursery is good for babies?

Because it isn't true.

Make whatever choices you want, but do it in possession of all the facts. Nursery is sold as being 'good' for babies because we want parents back in the workplace and not troubling the government for better quality childcare.

Yes, this

Do you think CMs are better? If so, why? Not being goady, am an interested FTzm not yet back at work!

But I don’t have to pretend because my DS started nursery as a baby and I’ve seen nothing to suggest that it isn’t good.

I don’t think a childminder would’ve suited him.

Maybe we just need to respect the fact that babies are individuals and some will suit nursery more and some will suit childminders more. Mine has thrived at nursery.

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that some babies 'suit' group/institutionalised care over and above indivualised care. I think all of the evidence points to the ideal situation for babies being individual/small group care.

Nursery is fine. I don't doubt that your child was and is fine. It's fine for many, many babies. But it's simply not true to suggest that it's optimal for babies or that they need it/it's in their best interests.

In the first case, two key workers looking after up to 16 babies (legal limit is 3 babies per worker), yes the woman was a murderer but she was put under undue pressure which likely contributed.

In the second case, one worker feeding 4 babies at once and management not training staff properly.

So both understaffed and poorly run. This is not unusual. We have a childcare crisis.

So we should be seeing the greatest levels of issues and problems amongst the cohort who use nurseries then, shouldn’t we?

But we don’t. That’s reserved for the children who grow up in poverty and therefore are excluded on financial grounds from accessing nurseries.

Funny, that.