To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

Number 3 -"Babies and children need “socialisation” and they need to make “friends” so are better off in nurseries" You are saying you don't believe children need socialisation and you didn't take yours to baby/ toddler groups as a SAHP?

Children benefit from some socialisation. In the first few years, socialisation from parents, close family and friends is sufficient. It is a myth that children need to socialise with 20 strangers everyday who have no connection to their actual community, home life or family. It might have some nice added benefits, like the fact that children learn from other children, but the idea that children need to be socialised on such a large scale from such a young age is very overblown.

The only difference really is nappy changing and sleeping in terms of care responsibilities for a school age child V nursery child. A school teacher must still administer medicines, carry our minor first aid or call in health professionals, give a hug/cuddle if crying and let parent know any issues. A teacher may need to take a child to the toilet, wipe their bum and change their clothes if they have an accident (preschool/reception year!). They may have to help the child with their food. Granted most children have stopped napping at this point. Apparently some children are going to school now not yet potty trained so this further blurs lines. Also teachers look after children's mental health at school. So I don't accept it is just education which teachers provide, pastoral care is just as important. You accept that a teacher is better able to provide education than a parent (I agree in most cases!) but where and why do you draw the line between teacher and nursery worker when a teacher can have only one year training as I understand it. Would you be happier if they were called nursery nurses and had trained for a year and it was a respected profession? I'm just trying to understand why you and some others think nursery workers can't do their jobs properly to be trusted with your children based on two unfortunate examples of bad apple but you believe teachers can.

Maybe the concern centres on the issue that nurseries are dealing with babies who are arguably much more vulnerable than a school aged child?

The children are older, more verbal and less vulnerable - the level of care required is on a completely different scale. Their needs are also different. For the first 3 years, a child's main needs are to form a secure bond and attachment with one or two primary caregivers. Beyond age 3, the foundations have been laid and they don't need the same intensity of 1-1 care and interaction.

I never said that nursery workers can't do their jobs properly. I said that the ideal is for a baby to be cared for at home by their own family, and that institutional childcare is often a necessity and a good option when the former is not possible.

Number 3 -"Babies and children need “socialisation” and they need to make “friends” so are better off in nurseries" You are saying you don't believe children need socialisation and you didn't take yours to baby/ toddler groups as a SAHP?

For the first two years, swimming was the only outside activity that we did regularly. DH’s extended family, my extended family and friends were more than sufficient for “socialisation.” After DS was two, he did some organised activities like toddler music classes, tumble tots, and whatever was available in the country we were living in at the time. DH, DS and I split our time between three different countries (my home country, the U.K, and a country with which we have strong cultural links). We also did occasional visits to DH’s home country. I am bilingual, and DH is trilingual, so DS had lots of exposure to these languages, which was important to us since the best way to achieve linguistic fluency is constant exposure to the languages in the early years. In two of the countries in which we lived, there was very little in terms of outside organised activities, and DS spent a lot of time with me during the day “helping” me with household chores like laundry (i.e., making a mess as toddlers do) and accompanying me on routine household activities like shopping. DS played outside a lot because the weather was often hot. I also read to him, played with him, did some organised activities (like painting and playdough) with him: normal, everyday stuff that parents do.

“Number 2 No way is being a SAHP free in this world. Either you have a partner who is paying the bills to cover your loss of earnings (which can lead to resentment/getting taken for granted and other issues -see relationships board!) or income from assets to cover it. If you are not still paying into a private pension then you are losing literally hundreds to thousands of pounds every month depending on what job you had/could have had. This is your future happiness and comfort.. are you hoping your kids will repay your sacrifices? I highly doubt a state pension (if it even exists!) will be enough for a comfortable retirement in the future. Also unfortunately you are potentially losing your future career/earning potential -though this depends on demand for your skillset and employers equality of course. So no way is being a SAHP 'free', even if you are on benefits. “

Being a stay-at-home parent doesn’t mean that you lose your brain cells. DH and I both know how to plan for our future, as well as plan for DS’s future. Thank you for your concern though, Financial Advisor.

They're not "strangers" who have "no connection to their community"...they ARE that child's community. You seem to think that children don't have relationships independent of their parents. Just because their Mum or Dad might not know the other children doesn't mean that the child doesn't know and recognise them. The children they go to nursery with will be the ones they have their first play dates with and the first birthday parties they go to. They are the ones they bump into at the local park and the village shop. Many of them will end up in the same school or ballet class or sports team.

I'm glad that you had such a big extended family that you don't think your child needed to get to know anyone outside the family. We have one set of grandparents and that's it- she has one Uncle and one Aunt but both are too far away to be regularly involved. Even if we had more family, it would have been important to me that my child, from a young age, was finding out that there are lots of different types of family and people and it's very unlikely there'd have been much diversity within our own group of relatives.

You don't need to be defensive. I was simply making the point that nursery has some benefits in terms of socialisation, but that socialisation on such a large scale is not necessary from such a young age. Your parents and family friends, and grandparents if you're lucky, are sufficient. I also don't have family nearby.
This was in response to someone claiming that nursery is better than having a SAHP in this regard, pedalling the myth that socialisation on such a large scale is absolutely vital for babies, which is simply untrue.

It might not be vital, but depending on your child's temperament, it may well be beneficial. My daughter is a massive extrovert, she's happier in nursery than she would be at home with me all day.

I'm not sure how you decided I have loads of extended family nearby. I said close family (that is parents and perhaps grandparents), and friends

You said "Beyond age 3, the foundations have been laid and they don't need the same intensity of 1-1 care and interaction" my goodness I hope your children don't have any siblings close in age as you are breaking your own rule as they don't have 1:1 care 😆 I guess by this same token you believe any parent who has two or more children under 3 must be negligent! Poor parents of twins, not like they had a choice!

Also you know for well that the term 'institutional Childcare' is a heavily loaded and goady term, I highly doubt you or others go around telling people your
DCs are in the 'institution of school' 😂

I'm very glad you know how to plan for your future and good for you... I was merely pointing out that being a SAHP is not free as one poster claimed, one reason being aside from loss of salary, if you were working you'd be earning a pension. Simple maths says unless you get an income/pension from your spouse, assets or side business you will lose out as a SAHP. Personally I would not want to be beholden to my DH for cash as an option but each to their own.

Oh my gosh, you are just deliberately being obtuse and disingenuous. The mental acrobatics you have to go through to think that securing an attachment with one or two primary caregivers = children shouldn't have siblings are just ridiculous. I can't be bothered with this any more.

She's not being defensive, just responding to your goady post about children being with 20 'strangers' as you put it at nursery, which you must have known was a ridiculous statement. Actually @catchthebeat it was someone arguing against nurseries that came up with the 'socialisation myth'. I don't think in reality anyone sends their baby to nursery entirely for this reason, it is just a handy benefit. I see absolutely no downside to meeting new babies and adults though from a young age as long as your DC are not of a nervous disposition or SEND. After all, at a baby or toddler group there are often quite a few babies and parents and this can change each time whereas actually at nursery this tends to be relatively stable if they are attending the same days each week. I think if you stick to friends and family that's fine for development..but it's potentially not going to be a massively diverse range of people unless you have a big extended multicultural family. I actually think COVID will show you that being isolated is much poorer for people's mental health in general.

Also you know for well that the term 'institutional Childcare' is a heavily loaded and goady term, I highly doubt you or others go around telling people your DCs are in the 'institution of school' 😂

Schools, colleges, universities and boarding schools are all educational institutions. Hospitals are healthcare institutions. Banks are financial institutions. Churches and other religious places of worship are religious institutions. All these places have been created for a purpose: to educate, to provide medical/health care, to provide financial information/conduct financial transactions and to worship. Similarly, nurseries are childcare/educational institutions that provide childcare (institutional childcare). What else would you call it?

“Also why is it you say nursery workers are “trained professionals" is a myth?

It’s a myth because there seems to be a substantial number of people who seem to believe that institutional care (sorry, that’s what it is) is better than home care with a loving, nurturing parent because, apparently, nurseries are populated by highly “trained professionals” who are doing things with their child that they couldn’t possibly do at home; or that a loud, overstimulating environment with loads of strangers milling about is better for cognitive, social and emotional development than a slower, calmer home environment with 1 or 2 loving, nurturing primary caregivers and interaction with a small network of family and friends.

“Many are trained and have excellent experience..at good nurseries. I would not send my child to a nursery where there was no evidence of training. Are all the teachers/assistants at schools trained would be an interesting one as last time I checked you only needed a year and some courses you train on the job (I am not saying that is right for the record).”

Who gives a fig about training? You need someone who loves the child to care for the child. An illiterate mother is far superior to a stranger with a billion trillion years of training and education. Why? Because she loves her child, and that will be evident in the way she interacts with, and responds to her child; and that’s what’s necessary for the healthy wiring of the brain that occurs primarily in the first three years of life.

For working parents though, nursery becomes part of their village. They may start out as strangers but they certainly don't stay strangers.

Like with all things when it comes to parenthood, as long as you are a genuinely loving parent who wants the best for their child I don't see anything wrong with either approach. If a child has a SAHP who enjoys being at home with them and who is invested in their wellbeing then that is of course fantastic. But just like there are some poor quality nurseries, you also have some parents who, unfortunately, do not enjoy caring for their child at home and will park them in their highchair in front of the TV all day. In a case such as this it would probably be better if the parent and child had the support of a good quality nursery! There are some poor quality nurseries out there and as I have previously stated, we need stronger government intervention to improve on the quality of childcare. However, to call someone a bad parent for working outside the home and for using nurseries is quite frankly just cruel. It becomes like the breastfeeding vs formula debate, cruel and toxic. I am currently at home with my one year old because I have decided to take a career break to be at home. Do I judge mothers for not doing the same as me? NO!! Motherhood is tough and I know that for all of the other genuinely loving parents out there they are simply trying to do what is best.

Before someone asks why I am so invested in nurseries if I don't use them, the answer is that my career involved working for the local authority as part of their early years and schools team.

Who said that those who use nurseries are "bad parents"?

It was said previously on the thread.

That's very dependent on the situation. A child at home with an illiterate mother, unless there's another caregiver who can read and write on hand, is missing out on a lot of important developmental opportunities, considering she can't even read them a story. I'm assuming that you think leaving the house is not important, as there's a lot of activities you can't access without being literate and you certainly wouldn't be able to pass a theory test to drive a car, so you'd be limited to public transport which is very poor in many areas. That's before we get onto all the important safety information that she's going to have trouble accessing. Some might come through love or common sense, but safe sleep, choking hazards like whole grapes, etc., less so.

An illiterate mother is likely to be being supported quite heavily by HV or social services, and there is a reason why unemployed parents get more "free" childcare at a younger age; because outcomes have been demonstrated to be better with trained childcarers involved who can provide a broader range of opportunities and support the parents.

there is a reason why unemployed parents get more "free" childcare at a younger age; because outcomes have been demonstrated to be better with trained childcarers involved who can provide a broader range of opportunities and support the parents.

I don't think that's why they're entitled to more free childcare at all. It's because they have more trouble affording childcare than someone who's better paid, to encourage parents to stay in the workforce. Otherwise you're basically saying that children from poorer families are better off raised by the state than their uneducated parents, and that's pretty sinister.

Where is this data showing that children from poor families do better in institutional childcare settings than with their families?

In answer to your first part, I'm beginning to wonder how many nurseries you've actually been to and how you think they work.

My daughter goes to nursery on set days each week, as do all the other children. She knows exactly who comes in on a Monday for example so on Monday morning she knows which children she is going to see and which adults will be there. There is no "strangers milling about"- there are 12 children and 3 adults, all of whom are known to each other well, each day who free flow between an outdoor space and an large indoor space with a designated "calm room" in case the children are being loud in another area and a child wants quiet. There's a staff member in each area and there will be a range of adult-led activities set up to do, or free play opportunities if they would rather not be directed by an adult. The only time I'm aware they are all expected to participate is when external PE instructors come in once a week, and all the staff assist.

If you have the time and energy to set up painting, baking, playdough making and other sensory activities every single day, knowing that a 2 yo child has an attention span of around 30 seconds for an activity which take 15 minutes to set up and an hour to clean up, and will wander off with paint covered hands to go and touch any non-washable surfaces in the house immediately unless you are very quick about catching them, then I'm very impressed by that, well done.

They are not in the workforce. And attending childcare is not "being raised" by anyone other than the parents, just like school aged kids are still being raised at home, by their parents, they are just also attending another place of education. No-one is dropping their 18 mth child off at boarding school and not seeing them until the summer holidays.

This link is from the states but there are other more international studies you can find.

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/opre/report/childrens-learning-and-development-benefits-high-quality-early-care-and-education