To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

How many children die at home compared to nursery's?

Nursery is fine. I don't doubt that your child was and is fine. It's fine for many, many babies. But it's simply not true to suggest that it's optimal for babies or that they need it/it's in their best interests.

Most people don't live in a world where everything can be optimal. For many families, it's not optimal to loose a parents income in the medium term either, so you do what you have to do. 🤷‍♀️

They are absolutely appalling cases but more babies are deliberately killed by their own parents than die in childcare.

I used a very strong nursery from 13 months for DD, I always felt she was safe there. No regrets. But we were picky and drove fecking miles some distance as I didn’t like the local provision and paid a lot.

The staff at the one we used were largely older, there was very low turnover of staff and the owner (not a chain) was hands on. She was ex-Ofsted and they were never over ratio, it was always very thorough and encouraged unannounced drop ins by parents. I never saw anything that made me uncomfortable.

We eventually moved her to the school nursery on our doorstep and whilst it’s great for preschool age (we used it from
4 for a year) I don’t rate their care of babies as much and wouldn’t have used it for an under 3. You have to choose carefully.

I agree. I had some awful experiences with childminders!

On the other hand, I'm still in touch with the wonderful lady who was in charge of the babies' room when my kids were there and that's coming 30 years ago. The lady who took over from her is still there 20 years later.

First childminder was a nasty piece of work. Still enrages me all these years later. I didn't know all that was going on even though my elder two were old enough to tell me. TG youngest never went to her, but he went to an absolute Walter Mitty character who was apparently not able to differentiate between truth and fantasy and was actually quite mean to my child - again a lot of this didn't emerge until much later.

Finally got a lovely woman who I already knew and she loved my child and did all sorts of activities with them.

I could write a book about the other two!!

My kids are all adults doing really well in their lives. And I will be reaping the benefits of contributing all along to my work pension when I retire.

These tragedies resonate all the more because they are so rare.

I put DC2 in nursery when they were 12 months old. I felt terrible. I could see straight away this was not the best environment for them but my options were so limited I had to roll with it. I didn’t have any safety concerns otherwise I would have taken them out but I can hand on heart say I did not see any babies that looked happy there (and this was truly not a bad nursery by any means).

Fate worked in my favour and DC2 has been at a childminder since they were about 16 months and SO much happier. Admittedly a good childminder can be just as hard to find as a good nursery but I think for the little ones, particularly those under 2 a home from home environment with one primary carer that they can make a true connected with is worth its weight in gold.

Just to counteract this, DC1 was at a childminder until 3 and then they went to a nursery until they started school. Whilst the childminder was perfect up until that age, they really would have struggled with the school transition if they had not had that year and a half of nursery beforehand. It got them used to lots of kids, loud noises, different rules etc. So I 100% think there is a place for nurseries but do tend to agree that for the really little ones there are options that are less overwhelming.

Babies are vulnerable when exposed to monsters. Look at Lucy Letby. The point is these people are few and far between. Thank goodness.

I don’t want to wade into this whole debate, however this statement above - in mental health terms, it’s simply not true.
in terms of achievement and stability then it’s robust, but I have worked with adolescents with depression or anxiety who feel that they struggled in part due to extensive childcare from a young age.

Babies are different though, I’m not denying that childminders or other smaller settings suit some babies more but every single baby? I don’t think so.

It certainly wasn’t in my DS’ best interests for me to be a SAHM.

I think it really depends on the individual childminder and nursery tbh.

I think an excellent childminder is better than an excellent nursery. A good childminder is better than a good nursery. I think probably a good childminder is better than an excellent nursery. Obviously, an excellent nursery is better than a poor childminder.

If you look into child development absolutely all of the evidence points to the best care for children being with a key caregiver, in a small group situation, having their needs met on an individualised (not group) basis.

There is also lots of evidence around brain development and how important new experiences/sights/smells are for them. With that in mind is it best for a child to spend 50 hours a week in a childproof room and garden or is it better to be out in the world?

If you look at socialisation, do babies need to be in a room with others in the same age bracket? Or are they better off mixing with children of all ages, different adults etc.

You have to make the decision that works for you, but I would read up on child development (it's very interesting even if it doesn't inform your childcare choice).

Obviously, studies are limited in that they don't include every single baby that's ever lived so possibly, yes, some babies are better in nursery. But it's not what the evidence suggests (and there is vast amounts of research into early childhood development).

We viewed the Stockport nursery for our son and, as such, it's been quite uncomfortable listening. It had one of the best reputations in the area and literally, everyone, recommended it. The deputy manager had been there 17 years so would have been there when we looked round.

They also had correct ratio guidance, same CCTV, great outside free play area etc. All the boxes above we all want to tick.

Now I work full time and I get that we have pressures of needing to go back to work with limited family support. This country can't properly support working parents financially or even practically.

But reading that about Tiny Toes today I felt absolutely SICK and guilty, even though he would have been there years ago. Cheadle Hulme is a highly affluent area, and the nursery fees are representative of that. This isn't somewhere where parents couldn't afford to pay more (or needed to - the rates were sufficient to cover staffing levels).

Those poor parents.

I think there are a lot of safe nurseries but I just don’t think it’s the best environment for babies. I understand that parents need to work- we both work while having a family of 5 kids. We have always worked it out between ourselves so that they never needed nursery as babies.

Good childcare is in the interests of all children where both parents wish/need to work. In our case, we chose nursery. I was very happy with it. I subsequently had negative experiences with two childminders - the first one having been highly recommended by a family who had used her for years for their two children!! Definitely not my experience! The woman shouldn't have been allowed to mind a living creature never mind a child!!

I object to your use of the word "institutionalised"!! Children are absolutely NOT "institutionalised" in a good nursery facility where there is consistent care by a select number of staff with a low turnover. Nurseries provide "small group care"!!! Have you ever even been in one?

Well weren't you the fortunate ones.

Of course. No-ones saying otherwise.

My point is simply that the narrative that nursery is 'good' for babies, isn't true. It's sometimes the best available option. It shouldn't be though, the childcare available should be significantly better than it is.

It's not irrelevant. The OP has made a blanket statement that she thinks that nurseries are unsafe. I'm pointing out that the tragedies occurred in 0.0000001% of the children in nursery.

The vast majority of babies are physically safe in nurseries.

Is the current system, with too many babies in one room cared for by overworked, stressed, underpaid and often under qualified staff, ideal? No.

Oliver Steeper was being cared for in the Panda room in Jelly Beans Nursery. That room was for children aged 3 months to 2 years. How can that be acceptable? I would have thought there should be a separate room for young babies and then another room for older toddlers.

While I don’t wish to be dismissive of anybody’s pain, given the ages of the children we’re talking about it is unlikely they remember it.

It is better to look at what we do know.

We know that poverty is the biggest cause of misery. It leads directly to ill health: mental and physical. It ties in with issues relating to addiction, substance abuse, crime and familial breakdowns. That’s not to say that everyone who is unhappy is living in poverty of course.

So in short, parents who use childcare are more likely to be employed and they are more likely to be employed in jobs that pay well enough to make working and paying for childcare reasonably lucrative which usually suggests a higher level of education. These are all beneficial to children.

It’s very easy to blame your parents for everything. I did myself. Until I became a parent 😆

I'm sure most nurseries are safe.

How they rarely approach the point of key person properly due to staff rotas & shifts, the children rarely have a proper primary caregiver attachment. I don't think they are the best form of childcare at that age - i think childminders are better, preferably ones with a variable age group, eg only 1 baby at a time plus a couple of toddlers/preschool age & some school wraparound. More like a normal family environment.

That’s my experience with DS’ nursery too. Low staff turnover, consistent keyworker system, trips out and about etc.

Nothing institutionalised about it.

Putting babies in nursery doesn't benefit the baby. Far from it. It is just to benefit working parents. A baby needs it's primary care giver at that age.

But perhaps the narrative that having a SAHP is 'good' for small children isn't true either, by the same reasoning. As household income is the biggest indicator of children's outcomes. But that would, of course, be far too broad a statement. Just like the one you made was far too broad a statement.

None of this language moves the conversation on. There are pros and cons to everything, there is nuance to everything, what's right for one child and family may not be right for another.

@NuffSaidSam good nurseries - I don’t mean OFSTED good either - will benefit babies.

That isn’t to say they wouldn’t get the same benefit from their parents, but repeatedly insisting that they are of no benefit at best and harmful at worst is a little provocative.

I really hate it when people use a horrible tragedy to push their own beliefs and narratives. You don’t like nurseries: fine, don’t use one. It isn’t fine to keep repeating over and over that parents are deluded if they think it does their child good.

Kate Roughley wasn't a monster, unfortunately.
She was a very experienced, very well thought of nursery practitioner.
I've met lots of women like her in nurseries. See themselves as 'no nonsense'. Disrespectful, irritable attitude towards young children. Won't be manipulated by babies. Influencing the culture of a nursery. Good with parents.

She wasn't a monster, she didn't want to kill this baby or any baby - probably genuinely felt she 'loved babies'.