To think kids don't care if their parents love one another?

[AnotherDayAnotherDoll]

I was reading a boook "Stay or Leave- which is a book that discusses the indecision about whether to leave a relationship

In the chapter about how to consider kids when leaving relationship - it argued that really all kids want to do is avoid conflict. So doesn't matter whatever the set up - if it's predictable & kind & v little conflict - it doesn't matter all that much whether you are together or not.

And if you're in loveless & sexless marriage but where people are perfectly civil - most kids don't truly care/are interested as long as long as it doesn't affect them.

What are people's views?

I hvae some sympathy with this view. I'm not sure I ever considered (when I was a child) whether my parents loved one another or whether they were just functioning housemates who parented together.

From what I’ve heard, now my daughter is a teenager and her friends are more aware of relationships, children usually don’t care until they go to another house and witness happy, healthy relationships.

My daughter says a good few of her friends wish their parents would ‘end it already’ or comment on how x’s parents’ relationship put their parents’ relationship under a not so good spotlight.

I had enough conflict to cope with at work, last thing I wanted was conflict at home. Fortunately OH is easy going and his main views are similar to mine.

It 100% mattered as I grew up (because mine didn't). I am such a mix of my mum and dad that it felt a bit like my mum didn't love the bits of me that were like my dad and my dad didn;t love the bits of me that were like my mum.

As a mature adult now, I don't know whether that's really true - but that's how it felt to me as a child/teen.

All of this is true.

Both me and DH are from divorced families with varying levels of drama over the years. Even now the step dads / mums impact our lives massively (and not in a good way). DH didn't even separate until he was a teenager and it's STILL impacted his whole life, and now our children's too as step-cousins and the like are complicated too.

We won't divorce. Even though our recognise some of what the OP has posted. We will stay together through the ups and downs to give our children the stability we never had.

I think the greatest thing you can do for your kids wellbeing is model a happy loving relationship to them, minimal drama, huffing and shouting etc and good civil conflict resolution. Be a team. The long term effects of not having that foundation as a child cannot be underestimated.
I did not have this myself and the older I get the more I realise the lasting damage it's done to me. I have tried for many years to do the exact opposite of what my mother would have done in various situations that have arisen and I think it's worked, I think my DDs have a better background than I had which is all I can try to achieve for them and set them up for a happy life.

You say there’s no dysfunction but you’ve said several times that you don’t respect your husband - and I’m going to guess he doesn’t respect you, either. Unless the two of you are Oscar-winning actors, it’s very unlikely that the disrespect and disdain you have for each other and treat each other with isn’t blatantly apparent often in the way you speak to each other, treat each other, look at each other etc. DH and I have a couple of acquaintances who clearly resent each other and have no respect for each other and honestly, I hate even having to be in the same room as them at a house party, I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I had to live with them.

Sometimes they all make us cuddle on the sofa
This sounds like children who are desperately looking for proof that mum and dad love each other really. I understand that isn’t what you want to hear, but they know something’s not right between you.

You can divorce but not bring stepfamilies into it. I left my ex but I will never force a step parent on my DS. Stability comes in all different forms.

The alternative scenario - Mum & Dad having explosive arguments at 2am with no regard for the kids sleeping - screaming and yelling dragging up dirt from 20 years previous, slagging off their families & friends, chucking everything and anything at each other as long as it hurt, storming into my room to continue the argument because Mum chose to sleep in my room when they argued - and then not speaking to each other for days, sometimes weeks on end, doors slamming, every microaggression you can imagine. I was too scared to invite friends home because that argument could erupt anytime and when it did half the neighbourhood could hear and I would feel like I was the only one whose parents behaved like this - it was my dirty little secret that I had parents who couldn't behave themselves.
My family are horrendously dysfunctional I don't know where to start with the powerplays, the sulking, the over-stepping, the arguments that on reflection are very similar to the way my parents behaved with each other - as a family we are a total mess - yet when asked my sister said when all was said and done they were great parents who love each other very much - it's funny the way the mind can corrupt itself - I stay as far away from all of them as possible - I have gone no contact as much as I can - I don't blame any of them but they are not nice people to be around, I don't want to live my life like that - that's the damage that can be created when parents stay together.

Ah that's OK @Anxioustealady i asked for people's honest experiences and reflections - I'm so sorry what you've experienced. Divorce has such a long-lasting impact.

We have talked about splitting and H has been clear that yes, he is far too young to be single forever and he would of be open to dating again/even marrying again if we split. She might be wonderful, but she might treat my kids like shit - and that's feels like a too great a risk.

@ComtesseDeSpair the lack of respect. maybe that's a bit harsh for me to put in like that. i mean - we don't have anything in common. so the job interview example - I'm not bothered about telling him about my upcoming job interview because in all honesty, he would lecture me about what do/say/wear in a patronising tone and I find a lot of what he says is bollocks.

But in a way - maybe that's ok. Maybe a parnter isn't everything. I have friends who I would call to discuss a job interview who would be full of amazing advice and support.

The other thing - and maybe this is depressing as hell - but we don't spend that much time together. We both work full time and only have 1-2 hours a day by ourselves and we do spend that do doing our own things, then weekends is kid stuff, clubs, playdates, social stuff (separately mostly) - but when we are together, we still have a laugh, he might make me food for when i get in from the office, but mostly - we just get on with our lives. Our house is very affectionate - it's just going onto the kids and not one another.

I am finding this discussion v interesting though. Of course there is no easy answer - and every option means my kids in 15 years may be on MN (or some new fancy MN equivalent) talking about how my divorce/lack of divorce screwed them up.

I am in my 50s, so I suspect a bit older than most people on mumsnet. My relationship with DH has gone up and down over the years. Particularly just after DCs were born I think we were good friends and housemates. Sex did not happen that often we were often a bit tired and cranky and at times it would have been quite easy to think that the relationship was giving us nothing and to leave being honest. However, over time the magic came back as did the passion. It took a number of years but it did.

Only each individual knows what is going on in their own marriage and the judgements need to be made by the individual. However I would favour trying to preserve a marriage and work at it rather than look elsewhere. Clearly not if one partner is abusive. Particularly for DC I am often horrified on Mumsnet on how DCs suffer when parents split. The difficult relationships with step-parents and the lack of any joined up parenting.

I experienced all of that and I still think what I experienced after the divorce was worse.

Hmme your seeking 'evidence' from a pop psychology book and Mumsnet.
That's ok, but there is actually quite a lot of academic research and evidence based practice out there around this.
You sound thoughtful and like you want to the right thing, so I'm going to try and give a thoughtful answer...I hope it's not too confronting.
With regards to your question research is pretty clear I'm summarising massively but.... In terms of a range of outcomes for kids it's not about divorce or staying together. Parental conflict is not a good thing for kids (numerous poorer outcomes). Importantly this is not about violence and aggression (although that is also really bad) but verbal conflict AND really importantly (in your case) conflict can include stonewalling, silence, non-verbal expressions of contempt etc. Research has found that one of tne of the reasons this is problematic is that the absence of joint problem solving means kids don't witness how to resolve differences. Essentially some level of disagreement/ conflict is ok as long as the couple can communicate problems and work towards solving them. This kind of communication is actually quite helpful to witness. Without it you get (as others have mentioned) adults who learn a lesson that talking about differences or happening string feelings is a bad thing. They also have no clue how to do it because of course it's not discussed or modelled.
Helping couples to argue well is a big part of what couples therapist do (good ones, hard to find I know). Helping to break the depressing intergenerational cycles of crap relationships. Good relationships are so life enhancing, they really do protect against the shit life throws at us. Could you and your DH consider trying to see if you could find someone to help you move this dynamic to give your kids a chance of being free from the pattern?

That's interesting to me that even though your husband was older it still impacted him a lot. I've never been close to anyone who's been that sort of age when their parents split. A lot of people say they're staying together until the kids are 18 but I don't think that's great for kids either, especially if they can't afford to live independently for a long time.

@Beezknees but how can you or anyone in this scenario. Prevent the ex from introducing a new partner, step kids, new babies, a new extended family. You can do your bit to keep things stable but you can't control the ex.

@zumodenaranja @Beezknees exactly. I can honestly say I wouldn't live with another man but my H absolutely would with another woman and she may have her own kids of course - likely at our age.

I did a little reading @hettie and seems the top line is "unless there is violence or abuse, kids do better with parents living in the same home". I agree that seeing arguments solved healthily is a great example but that only gets harder post split surely?

I do worry the strategy of just "muddling along" is limited. Let's just say if I won an all expenses week holiday for H and I, I would not want to go.

What I want to avoid is spending the next 15 years of my life with the continual internal debate. Its bloody exhausting.

I'll say the same to you as I say to my kids.... you're only responsible for your own behaviour.

If you split and he turns into a nasty bustard, that's not on you.

I wouldn't advise talking on responsibility for his actions and catastraphising that your kids entire happiness rests on your shoulders. It doesn't.

You can't, it's not a great reason to stay in an unhappy marriage though. I'm a child of divorce and it was a complete non issue for me.

My parents didn’t love each other I don’t think and it made for a very unhappy childhood. I felt ashamed compared to whwt I saw in other families and I still carry a lot of that. So yeah I think kids do care.

You raise a really interesting discussion OP.

You draw the analogy of living with housemates. I've been struck throughout your posts by the difference between what I think you are describing and my experience of living with a housemate. Generally we like people we choose to live with, and we think of them with a degree of respect. We love our friends. A relationship that you describe as loveless, in which you have no respect for him, no interest in anything he says, seems fundamentally "less than" one most people would have with someone they rub along with as housemates. Can you really model interactions with someone you are so uncomfortable with, in a way that is a good enough blueprint for your kids' future loving, or friendly, authentic, respectful relationships? But maybe it's just my lack of imagination in how you can maintain civility that well in these quite trying circumstances, in the intimacy of your own home. I suppose it depends how civil (convincing?) the interactions are.

If you were to live alone, you would still be modelling relationships. The way you relate to your children counts, as does the way you talk about and interact with your friends and extended family. I wonder if the children seeing you interacting fundamentally with people you like and/or love might be better, without the blight of very cool interactions masquerading as your primary loving relationship. But I completely take your point on how it could all blow up if you split. Staying together, just so it doesn't, sounds very strained and unstable though. Will you wake up one morning with a giant ick that this is your life and viscerally need him out, out, out right this instant?

In the meantime minimising the time you spend together sounds like an excellent plan.

I'm tossing thoughts around as you've opened it up as a debate. I don't know anything about your life really and I trust you'll disregard any of the above that you disagree with.

@AnotherDayAnotherDoll
Well ... I'm sorry but what your reading is telling you .....it's just not true.
We've known for years.
This chap https://news.educ.cam.ac.uk/content/profile-gordon-harold has made it his lives work. Several years ago he wrote a book called 'not in front of the children' it summarised the existing research (he and many others have done much since). He gave the book that title because people often say 'but we don't ever argue in front of the children' ...Assuming that makes it ok. It's not.
Here's an overview of the research

https://www.eif.org.uk/report/what-works-to-enhance-interparental-relationships-and-improve-outcomes-for-children
I know it's hard to hear and most people deny it because rowing or frosty indifference is so common, but it really isn't better to stay married when there is conflict... Divorce is disruptive and the first two years in particular seem to impact kids, but if overall conflict is reduced (because they don't experience it every day) and you model good communication and problem solving in your relationship with them its better.

I don't think a marraige where you're not in love or physically attracted to each other anymore is necessarily "loveless". There are different kinds of love.

If a couple are kind to one another, treat each other with respect and genuinely enjoy one anothers company, isn't that still a loving marraige in a way?

If all the marraige is lacking is romance and sex then that shouldn't be an issue for the children unless it's making one or both parents unhappy in a way that is noticeable or causes conflict. If both parents are content with how things are and the house is conflict free then not being passionately in love is unlikely to impact the kids IMO.

I work with young children and they are inherently selfish - they are not concerned about their parent's getting their needs met. The idea that a child would be concerned about their mother (because it seems to always be about the mother?) having a fulfilling sex life or being romantically happy is quite ridiculous. This seems to be something that women tell themselves/each other in order to justify 'breaking' the family unit. Men don't feel the need to do this, so if you want to leave for pastures new then go ahead, but don't do it under the guise that your orgasms are going to produce happier children. Children need stability, love and to have their physical and emotional needs tended to. On a global scale parental/societal norms differ, many children across the world do not witness their parents being romantically affectionate (because it isn't a norm) and they turn out fine. There's a massive difference between being in a cohabiting friends but civil marriage and one that is volatile and high conflict.

@Colombie yes, what you say is right of course. I've struggled to describe it accurately. Indifference possibly. Its not a friendship i guess. As I said, I wouldn't want to go on holiday with just him, I wouldn't tell him anything personal or that I needed support on.

So it isn't a different type of love. It's living parallel lives. Though I do enjoy the love and care he gives the kids. He cooks dinner. He is loyal. But there isn't love or even that much like.

There are no 2am fights because neither of care for one another enough to bother.

I agree about the fear. And when people say its a couple of year of shit and then it all settles down, that isn't true for many. There are adults on this thread who are still affected by bitter divorced parents and unloving step parents

No easy options. And I do reckon most people that divorce will have tried pretty hard

Who wants a much smaller house, loss of money, another woman bringing up your kids, and to only see their kids 50% or less? Not me certainly.

I had a school friend as a teen whose parents were living together until their youngest child (who was about 11 at the time) finished secondary school. The parents were civil, but certainly not loving towards each other and they had separate bedrooms. All four dc were aware of this arrangement. They were a wealthy family so could have afforded two decent homes but they made this decision in order to keep a stable home whilst the dc were in their childhood. I bumped into this friend a few years ago (we are now both in our 40s) and we were talking about our dc and the anxiety as parents that you aren't doing enough etc etc, and she said the greatest gift her parents gave them was staying together until they had essentially grown up, and how much now as an adult she appreciated their sacrifice.

This is so weird.