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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not have realised how abusive and horrible men were until I joined MN

495 replies

geoger · 15/05/2024 20:04

Been on MN a while now and I must admit that it has really opened my eyes to how abusive and horrible some men are. I’m not ignorant, I know that men can be violent, controlling, abusive etc - I read loads, watch the news and documentaries but I just didn’t realise the depths of depravity some men reach. Every day there are threads where women are physically, emotionally, financially and sexually abused by their so called ‘d’ h/p that I find really worrying and distressing.
Some of these threads still play on my mind and I worry for the women who posted them.
I feel so stupid and naive and trusting. MN has really opened my eyes. Has anybody else experienced this worry for other women on here or am I just living in a bubble?
I know this is AIBU but please no bashing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:43

OK, I'll try and find the studies I mentioned from the other threads. Will cut and paste.

Sallyh87 · 15/05/2024 21:44

Longlurker1 · 15/05/2024 20:59

You are part of the Mumsnet bubble. All the talk of horrible men on here and your comment personifies all the things that are bad about women

Why are you here in the ‘Mumsnet bubble’, if you have such contempt for its users and women generally?

allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld · 15/05/2024 21:45

@geoger it also shocks me that there are so many weak, timid women out there who are afraid of their own shadow and wont stand up for themselves!

PanicAttax · 15/05/2024 21:45

Love they can't get their tiny brains around the irony of posting on how abusive and controlling men can be with abusive and controlling posts.

Find your incel links by all means, the rest of the data internet says otherwise.

hettie · 15/05/2024 21:46

We need to pull all the possible levers we can to create change. And if one such lever is site like Mumsnet then great. Sharing information, thinking about how we can raise our sons and daughters to break these patterns, providing advice, support and validation ....they are all small parts of bigger change.
As for the namalt angle... Well I'm married to Mr unicorn shit. Genuinely... But both him and I are aware what a rare specimen he is. Not that all our friendship group/colleagues are full of out and out abusive arseholes. But there is a vanishingly tiny percentage who are in genuinely equitable relationships and many of the women know this and complain about it (and a fair few are divorced). So no it's not all men but dear god it's a depressingly high percentage who don't step up domestically, or with their children or keep their money and expect childcare to be free....

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:49

The theory that women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly similar rates as men has been termed "gender symmetry". The earliest empirical evidence of gender symmetry was presented in the 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of intimate partner violence in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" intimate partner violence.

Since 1975, numerous other empirical studies have found evidence of gender symmetry in intimate partner violence. For example, in the United States, the National Comorbidity Study of 1990-1992 found 18.4% of men and 17.4% of women had experienced minor intimate partner violence, and 5.5% of men and 6.5% of women had experienced severe intimate partner violence.[48][49]

In England and Wales, the 1995 "Home Office Research Study 191" found that in the twelve months prior to the survey, 4.2% of both men and woman between the ages of 16 and 59 had been assaulted by an intimate.[50]

The Canadian General Social Survey of 2000 found that from 1994 to 1999, 4% of men and 4% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 22% of men and 28% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 7% of men and 8% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[35]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data.[52]

The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional.[53]

A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

In 1997, Philip W. Cook conducted a study of 55,000 members of the United States Armed Forces, finding bidirectionality in 60-64% of intimate partner violence cases, as reported by both men and women.[55]

The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of intimate partner violence cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. When data provided by men only was analyzed, 46.9% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 53.1% as non-reciprocal. When data provided by women only was analyzed, 51.3% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 49.7% as non-reciprocal. The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women).[56]

The 2006 thirty-two nation International Dating Violence Study "revealed an overwhelming body of evidence that bidirectional violence is the predominant pattern of perpetration; and this ... indicates that the etimology of ipv is mostly parallel for men and women". The survey found for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

From 2010 to 2012, scholars of domestic violence from the U.S., Canada and the U.K. assembled The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge, a research database covering 1700 peer-reviewed studies, the largest of its kind. Among its findings:[63]"

More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.

  • Rates of female-perpetrated violence are higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%).
  • Male and female IPV are perpetrated from similar motives.
  • Studies comparing men and women in the power/control motive have mixed results overall.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

Domestic violence against men - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

5128gap · 15/05/2024 21:50

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:38

So men need to listen to women about DV but if they dare acknowledge that they have then they're in the wrong? Er, OK.

I'm not sure why you've quoted my post to make a comment that has no relevance to what I said.

Blueeyedmale · 15/05/2024 21:51

Longlurker1 · 15/05/2024 20:18

Chap here. As a bloke a lot of these threads have really opened my eyes as to how men treat women.

Also bear in mind Mumsnet is a bit of a bubble for women who've had bad experiences.

Not all men are like this ...

It's not just mumsnet unfortunately the everyday experiences thst women and girls face can be seen across many platforms and in some cases everyday life.

I don't really like the responses from men when they say not all men are like this as I find it minimises those terrible experiences that women and girls go through everyday.

There is also the aspect of I'm alright jack I don't do this to women so it's not my concern.as men I believe we must challenge this behaviour and call it out for what it is

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:52

Now watch everybody scramble to try and discredit the massive amount of data above as with every time I've seen it posted before on here.

We're taking the world largest meta study on DV (covering 1700 peer reviewed studies), a study with 500,000 respondents, and a 32 nation study, amongst many others.

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:53

Or alternatively posters will just carry on and pretend they've not seen it.

WalkingThroughTreacle · 15/05/2024 21:55

Longlurker1 · 15/05/2024 20:18

Chap here. As a bloke a lot of these threads have really opened my eyes as to how men treat women.

Also bear in mind Mumsnet is a bit of a bubble for women who've had bad experiences.

Not all men are like this ...

Another "chap" here. Maybe not all men are like that, but too fucking many of us are. I use "us" consciously because we are all part of the problem. Even if we don't actively participate, at some point or other we have all been complicit, whether that be minimising, excusing, justifying, turning a blind eye or not speaking out.

Both my sister's have been in more than one abusive relationship, 2 of my nieces that I know of, my step daughter has had two controlling partners and I've witnessed more abuse and violence against women in the course of my life than I can recount here. I don't believe I move in unusual circles, I just don't pretend not to see what is all around us. It's good that you are prepared to acknowledge it but please don't play the NAMALT card because it's utter bollocks.

BlackPanther75 · 15/05/2024 21:57

Person goes on an Internet chat room and discovers what men are ‘really’ like,

how ridiculous

Many women are aggressive, violent, and rapists too

as are many men

Rebecca Joynes…

drusth · 15/05/2024 22:02

WalkingThroughTreacle · 15/05/2024 21:55

Another "chap" here. Maybe not all men are like that, but too fucking many of us are. I use "us" consciously because we are all part of the problem. Even if we don't actively participate, at some point or other we have all been complicit, whether that be minimising, excusing, justifying, turning a blind eye or not speaking out.

Both my sister's have been in more than one abusive relationship, 2 of my nieces that I know of, my step daughter has had two controlling partners and I've witnessed more abuse and violence against women in the course of my life than I can recount here. I don't believe I move in unusual circles, I just don't pretend not to see what is all around us. It's good that you are prepared to acknowledge it but please don't play the NAMALT card because it's utter bollocks.

Good post, thank you

Domtickandlarry · 15/05/2024 22:02

Same OP. I’m gay so never had a relationship with a man, and the ones I have had in my life have been good and many gay too.
You kind of know it goes on but then hearing the day to day stories really hammers it home.

Domtickandlarry · 15/05/2024 22:04

But I know of men like this Insupposed - 2 aunts divorced violent men, but in ever witnessed it as I was little and it was all done at home. They never talked about them. Those men must have had friends who knew what was going on, I do wonder if they ever thought to step in, say something.

L79 · 15/05/2024 22:04

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:52

Now watch everybody scramble to try and discredit the massive amount of data above as with every time I've seen it posted before on here.

We're taking the world largest meta study on DV (covering 1700 peer reviewed studies), a study with 500,000 respondents, and a 32 nation study, amongst many others.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

MrsJackThornton · 15/05/2024 22:09

Longlurker1 · 15/05/2024 20:59

You are part of the Mumsnet bubble. All the talk of horrible men on here and your comment personifies all the things that are bad about women

Ah, I see "not all women are like that" doesn't appear so readily in your vocabulary

Just "things that are bad about women"

Well if the things that are bad about women are sarcasm, rather than rape, assault and murder, that says it all really.

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 22:12

Wow. Guess a few mumsnet posters know better than world's largest study on DV. 🤣

Notamum12345577 · 15/05/2024 22:16

You can’t use MN for a true picture of men. People aren’t going to make a post are they just saying ‘my husband is very nice’ but of course they will make a post if he is being nasty (as they should, for support and advice etc). Yes some men are nasty, and it is going to be a bigger percentage than it would be for nasty women, but most men are still decent people.

brunettemic · 15/05/2024 22:17

PauliesWalnuts · 15/05/2024 20:38

I had an argument with a friend about this at the weekend - she isn’t on MN. I said that I estimated that around 50% of men are arseholes and she really wouldn’t have it. But she’s been married to a decent bloke for 20 years, they don’t have kids so there’s less stress in the relationship. She’s never done OLD, never copped abuse cycling from work, works for herself so never been sat next to a bloke on the train playing pocket billiards. Etc etc. I stand by it - half of men are arseholes.

50% is honestly a ridiculous estimate.

keffie12 · 15/05/2024 22:19

I in 4 women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime. 3 women a week are being killed still by abusive partners.

When Womens Aid started 50 years in 1974, it was 2 women a week. It went up to 4 a week in lockdoen and now averages at about 3 a week.

I'm a survivor of hence

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 22:22

This is why I often can't take these threads seriously....

Mumsnet posters: "Men commit so much violence against women."

Rational person: "Well, actually the bulk of data doesn't suggest this".

Mumsnet posters: "Whataboutery!".

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Theothername · 15/05/2024 22:24

I agree op that MN has been a sad education. Something I have found heartbreakingly sad is the psychological defences that victims subconsciously erect to protect themselves from the horror they’re living in.

Over and over, I’ve read a version of a woman posting about something quite minor that on the surface seems almost ridiculous to be upset by, until someone asks a question that peels back a layer and slowly the sordid mess gets laid bare and you can tell that she hasn’t been able to see full extent of it before.

That slow erosion of self worth is terrifying, and some of the fiercest advocates on the relationships board recognise it because they lived it. But reading the transformation on some of the long running threads, when posters form a circle of truth, strength and support and help a woman find her way out of danger and back to her own strength and self is beyond amazing. MN is a phenomenal community in certain corners.

BlackPanther75 · 15/05/2024 22:26

The latest Office for National Statistics figures (2022/23) show that one in three victims of domestic abuse are male equating to 751,000 men (3.2%) and 1.38 million women (5.7%). From this, 483,000 men and 964,000 women are victims of partner abuse. (ONS 2022/23).

5128gap · 15/05/2024 22:28

WalrusOfLove · 15/05/2024 21:53

Or alternatively posters will just carry on and pretend they've not seen it.

You might get a better reception if you gave it its own thread. Because if you believe that women pose a grave danger to men, and you are fearful for your wellbeing and life at our hands, then you might want to consider mounting a campaign.
March for safer streets for yourselves.Set up buddying schemes to walk in twos at night in case we attack you.
Create a database of men only trades people so you don't have to fear we might sexually harass you in your homes.
Teach your 13 year old sons how to walk swiftly past and not make eye contact when we cat call them from our vans on their way to school.
Consider self defence classes so when we physically restrain you, hold you down, use our height and strength advantage to subdue you you may be able to escape us.
What you probably shouldn't bother doing is telling us about how much suffering injury and deaths we inflict on men. Because you'll probably find we just say NAWALT.