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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

“Women and birthing people. “

473 replies

Riapia · 13/05/2024 18:11

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:24

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:22

No they can't.

Knowing that sex is real is a protected belief despite what you gender ideologues wish it to be.

It depends on who you aim your beliefs at and how. Why dont you experiment at work?

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:25

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:23

Well if a woman says they arent a person and are neither cis or trans, they leave limited options when one is needing to distinguish between these groups of women.

I dont ask anyone who uses maternity services for their views on any social or political issues. It would be wholly unprofessional.

Yet you think it is professional to impose your political beliefs on them by failing to address them as women, which is the correct term for every human that can gestate and bear a baby!

We live in a clown world where reality no longer exists if services are allowed to behave in this way towards women.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:28

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:23

People who think that trans men are men are wrong.

People who think that trans women are women are wrong.

It is hilarious and quite frightening giving that you are an HCP, that you don't know this @Mackmacking

I think it would be far more frightening if a HCP wasnt prepared to provide individualised, compassionate care to eaxh service user.

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 14:29

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:14

Everyone can be a victim of misogyny. Misogyny is why masculinity is so heavily policed.

This is where it gets silly. Because men/everyone aren’t victims of misogyny.

masculinity isn’t heavily policed because of misogony. They are closely interrelated mechanisms of course - two ways of reinforcing the patriarchy - but they are separate concepts which also act independently in different ways. (Again, I refer you to a level sociology) The whole of society suffers due to it, that’s NOT the same as being a victim of it.

misogyny
: hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:29

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:25

Yet you think it is professional to impose your political beliefs on them by failing to address them as women, which is the correct term for every human that can gestate and bear a baby!

We live in a clown world where reality no longer exists if services are allowed to behave in this way towards women.

I will address any indvidual who says they are a woman, as a woman. I spoke about distinguishing between groups of women.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/05/2024 14:30

If a HCP, a maternity one at that, really believes that one decides their sex then they aren't fit to be in such a position. That job is not for them.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:34

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 14:29

This is where it gets silly. Because men/everyone aren’t victims of misogyny.

masculinity isn’t heavily policed because of misogony. They are closely interrelated mechanisms of course - two ways of reinforcing the patriarchy - but they are separate concepts which also act independently in different ways. (Again, I refer you to a level sociology) The whole of society suffers due to it, that’s NOT the same as being a victim of it.

misogyny
: hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women

I disagree. Boys are punished for being effeminate because society is misogynistic so being female is seen as inferior/repulsive. If society was not misogynistic, then we wouldnt have such rigid ideas of masculinity and femininity and males who do not exude hegemonic masculinity would not be seen as lesser men. Therefore, the hatred of women punishes (some) men and vigorously controls all the others

RimTimTagiTim · 16/05/2024 14:40

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/05/2024 14:30

If a HCP, a maternity one at that, really believes that one decides their sex then they aren't fit to be in such a position. That job is not for them.

Well if they believe that midwives assign sex at birth, why not also believe the baby can decide what sex it wants to be later on!

Lampy123678 · 16/05/2024 14:50

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:23

People who think that trans men are men are wrong.

People who think that trans women are women are wrong.

It is hilarious and quite frightening giving that you are an HCP, that you don't know this @Mackmacking

What's frightening is the amount of posters on here who can't wrap their heads around the concept that a HCPs personal beliefs are inappropriate to mention or enforce on a patient! A HCP can think trans women are men all they want. What they can't do is have a patient introduce themselves as a trans women and say "well I believe you're a man" or "trans women are men"
Jesus Christ this is so easy to understand.

Lampy123678 · 16/05/2024 14:53

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:25

Yet you think it is professional to impose your political beliefs on them by failing to address them as women, which is the correct term for every human that can gestate and bear a baby!

We live in a clown world where reality no longer exists if services are allowed to behave in this way towards women.

It is not a political belief she is imposing. She is honouring a patients wishes to be referred to in a certain way. One of the most basic duties of a health care provider is to not offend a patient regardless. The fact that you want patients to be disrespected by their healthcare providers is disgusting tbh.

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 14:55

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:34

I disagree. Boys are punished for being effeminate because society is misogynistic so being female is seen as inferior/repulsive. If society was not misogynistic, then we wouldnt have such rigid ideas of masculinity and femininity and males who do not exude hegemonic masculinity would not be seen as lesser men. Therefore, the hatred of women punishes (some) men and vigorously controls all the others

That’s not the same. Your statement implies that men, as a class, are victims of misogyny.
If you actually mean
some effeminate men could be considered to be indirect victims of misogyny
then that’s a very different point and you should say so explicitly.

yet another example of why it’s so important to be clear and specific in the language you use.

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 14:57

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:21

People who think trans men are called trans women are wrong. Just like people who think South Africa is just the south of Africa.

I agree it isnt decided at birth. Its assigned according to their anatomy. The person ultimately decides their sex/gender. I have decided to leave mine as assigned because it matched how I feel about myself and my body. It wasnt much of a dilemma for me.

Your sex was 'assigned'?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 14:59

People who think trans men are called trans women are wrong. Just like people who think South Africa is just the south of Africa.

As I said, I don't recognise the term "trans woman" as meaningful other than a person who identifies as the opposite sex. It makes much more sense to me to use "trans woman" for women who identify as men, than the opposite.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 15:00

Your sex was 'assigned'?

It's all just posturing.

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 15:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 15:00

Your sex was 'assigned'?

It's all just posturing.

Yep,total bollocks.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 15:27

The person ultimately decides their sex

No. It's not possible for anyone to decide their sex, any more than it is for them to decide at 70 that they're actually 25.

duvelmonkey · 16/05/2024 18:13

who decides their sex? What on earth are you talking about @Mackmacking

hayleyrabbit · 16/05/2024 18:50

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 11:24

By acknowledging the subset of non-person women who are neither cis or trans? Make it make sense.

WTAF?

Arraminta · 16/05/2024 19:05

You see that's the reassuring thing about science, it deals in the facts not the feelz. However you wish to identify, if your skeleton happens to be examined in 100 years time you will either be correctly identified as a man or woman, that's it. Doesn't matter how you lived.

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 20:36

Lampy123678 · 16/05/2024 14:50

What's frightening is the amount of posters on here who can't wrap their heads around the concept that a HCPs personal beliefs are inappropriate to mention or enforce on a patient! A HCP can think trans women are men all they want. What they can't do is have a patient introduce themselves as a trans women and say "well I believe you're a man" or "trans women are men"
Jesus Christ this is so easy to understand.

I dont think anyone here is saying that hcp shouldn’t address individuals in any way the individual wishes. I also think they’d agree that all pregnant women/mothers and babies (regardless of how they identify) should feel able to access and receive high quality care.
The issue is that conventional language has been changed, disproportionately so in female related medical literature. There has been no real consultation, there has been no high quality research as to how and who might have been being harmed/disadvantged by the original language. There has been no
consultation or research as to how and who might now be being harmed/disadvantaged by the new language.
Changes should be based on research, evidence, analysis, facts. Not a nameless someone somewhere deciding this is probably a good idea.
We’ve had the Cass report which showed that very significant medical interventions were being administered to vulnerable children without research, evidence, analysis or facts. It’s a national disgrace that the nhs should be ashamed of.
It’s time to ask hard questions about what public bodies like the nhs and the education system are doing. Particularly so in the realms of gender and sex. It is not harmless to change language. It is the thin end of the wedge. Undermining facts and muddying the waters, especially without any research or analysis, is dangerous and could easily lead to even more serious risks to the populations that health and education bodies are there to serve.
The Cass report has saved a generation of children from serious harm. The Cass report only came about due to people asking hard questions (that people didn’t want to hear and tried to shut down) about the situation.

Thepatioisready · 17/05/2024 00:17

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:24

It depends on who you aim your beliefs at and how. Why dont you experiment at work?

So what if your work was forensics? Body bought in...DNA and bones say female. But oh look . In life she identified as male.

Or your work is Guinness Book of Records . Worlds oldest person is male. Oh no wait...

Or statistician. Or a prison warden

Lampy123678 · 18/05/2024 13:55

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 20:36

I dont think anyone here is saying that hcp shouldn’t address individuals in any way the individual wishes. I also think they’d agree that all pregnant women/mothers and babies (regardless of how they identify) should feel able to access and receive high quality care.
The issue is that conventional language has been changed, disproportionately so in female related medical literature. There has been no real consultation, there has been no high quality research as to how and who might have been being harmed/disadvantged by the original language. There has been no
consultation or research as to how and who might now be being harmed/disadvantaged by the new language.
Changes should be based on research, evidence, analysis, facts. Not a nameless someone somewhere deciding this is probably a good idea.
We’ve had the Cass report which showed that very significant medical interventions were being administered to vulnerable children without research, evidence, analysis or facts. It’s a national disgrace that the nhs should be ashamed of.
It’s time to ask hard questions about what public bodies like the nhs and the education system are doing. Particularly so in the realms of gender and sex. It is not harmless to change language. It is the thin end of the wedge. Undermining facts and muddying the waters, especially without any research or analysis, is dangerous and could easily lead to even more serious risks to the populations that health and education bodies are there to serve.
The Cass report has saved a generation of children from serious harm. The Cass report only came about due to people asking hard questions (that people didn’t want to hear and tried to shut down) about the situation.

Posters on here and other discussions absolutely are saying that.

OutOfTea · 18/05/2024 14:24

Its assigned according to their anatomy. The person ultimately decides their sex/gender.

But that's what sex refers to. Your anatomy. Not your personal interests, your likes, your favourite colour or anything like that.

Male/female; man/woman is literally just a signifier to identify which class of human a person falls into. Based upon their anatomy.

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