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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

“Women and birthing people. “

473 replies

Riapia · 13/05/2024 18:11

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
duvelmonkey · 15/05/2024 21:30

TheKeatingFive · 15/05/2024 21:22

But is there a single jot of evidence to suggest that this terminology will stop women getting hysterectomies? I seriously doubt it.

The women you're referencing here need intensive therapy. Not the rest of the world denying reality because of their issues with accepting what they are.

This exactly.

Portakalkedi · 15/05/2024 21:32

Women who choose to identify as men, the get pregnant and give birth, surely cannot be so completely in denial that the only reason they are able to do so is because they are women. If it is the case that they are the ones demanding the use of these nonsensical terms, then shame on them for such a disservice to women.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/05/2024 21:35

Portakalkedi · 15/05/2024 21:32

Women who choose to identify as men, the get pregnant and give birth, surely cannot be so completely in denial that the only reason they are able to do so is because they are women. If it is the case that they are the ones demanding the use of these nonsensical terms, then shame on them for such a disservice to women.

Absolutely this.

Name5 · 15/05/2024 21:38

@TheKeatingFive there isn't any evidence because these young women were dragged into this during the last fifteen years. Transpeople were mainly natal men.The number having full surgery around 2000 a year. Then along comes the Internet and influencers that have lied to people. That I agree on. What I'm saying is the thoughts of a number of ftm I know are now to having the own children. Five years ago it was surgery or nothing. They were demanding irreversible operations at 18. American ftm tend to go the surgery route and freeze eggs.
Some posters have suggested these people should not have children. Those who have children know how motherhood changes so many people. Someone clever than me may have the facts on detransisitioners but I know it's high.

duvelmonkey · 15/05/2024 21:41

Name5 · 15/05/2024 21:38

@TheKeatingFive there isn't any evidence because these young women were dragged into this during the last fifteen years. Transpeople were mainly natal men.The number having full surgery around 2000 a year. Then along comes the Internet and influencers that have lied to people. That I agree on. What I'm saying is the thoughts of a number of ftm I know are now to having the own children. Five years ago it was surgery or nothing. They were demanding irreversible operations at 18. American ftm tend to go the surgery route and freeze eggs.
Some posters have suggested these people should not have children. Those who have children know how motherhood changes so many people. Someone clever than me may have the facts on detransisitioners but I know it's high.

@Name5 Please could you expand your thoughts on "these young women were dragged into this during the last fifteen years"

Mackmacking · 15/05/2024 21:47

duvelmonkey · 15/05/2024 17:00

It still means “with woman” no matter how professional.
Everyone knows that.

Yeah people who do mind being referred to as a woman dont seem bothered about that.

blacksax · 15/05/2024 21:50

Riapia · 13/05/2024 18:11

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

Hahahahahahaha. Oh dear. Some people aren't safe to be out on their own, are they?

duvelmonkey · 15/05/2024 21:50

Mackmacking · 15/05/2024 21:47

Yeah people who do mind being referred to as a woman dont seem bothered about that.

So specific.
Thank goodness you know everything.

Name5 · 15/05/2024 21:54

@duvelmonkey I believe having spoken to a number of clinicians that the explosion in natal females wanting to be male started around fifteen years ago when YouTube stars such as 'Miles' became popular. I had employed two MTF but had never encountered FTM.
I believe the Cass report refers to the expanded numbers which are now 10 x that of twenty years ago. Other than that I don't have any data just direct experience.

TheKeatingFive · 15/05/2024 21:56

What I'm saying is the thoughts of a number of ftm I know are now to having the own children. Five years ago it was surgery or nothing. They were demanding irreversible operations at 18.

Ultimately - irreversible, life changing medical procedures shouldn't be something that people can simply 'demand'. First do no harm.

duvelmonkey · 15/05/2024 22:13

Name5 · 15/05/2024 21:54

@duvelmonkey I believe having spoken to a number of clinicians that the explosion in natal females wanting to be male started around fifteen years ago when YouTube stars such as 'Miles' became popular. I had employed two MTF but had never encountered FTM.
I believe the Cass report refers to the expanded numbers which are now 10 x that of twenty years ago. Other than that I don't have any data just direct experience.

Thank you @Name5
That's interesting.

lifeturnsonadime · 15/05/2024 22:14

@Name5

I can see where you are coming from from a personal level because my own daughter nearly fell down that rabbit hole.

Keeping the doors open for young women who have been led to believe they are men is very important, especially because so many of them are vulnerable as has been evidenced by Cass.

I think a lot of resentment here is comes from the fact that we are having dehumanising language imposed on us by HPAs. You only have to look at the contempt of the one who insists that we are cis. I can understand why you take this personally on the part of your child but I don't think that the answer is to continue with pandering to delusions. The answer is to fight to stop the 'health care' and kinds of surgeries that are putting vulnerable young women at risk in the first place.

Lavender14 · 15/05/2024 22:37

Thepatioisready · 15/05/2024 20:27

Which is fine in the context of a one to one situation. In the same way a doctor would talk to anyone who has specific issues.

The danger to women is that they become more marginalised than they already are. Already on the thread people have given examples of woman's experience being generalised into body parts. It is a woman's experience whether some chose to identify as anything else.
It's why the term " cis" is unnecessary and offensive. There are no categories of women. There are many categories of identify, trans bring one.

"The danger to women is that they become more marginalised than they already are. Already on the thread people have given examples of woman's experience being generalised into body parts. "

I agree with you on this, which is why I think both should be included and neither left out unless practicioners are aware of the identities of whoever they're speaking to. I don't believe that accommodating both detracts from either. It's different if women are being erased or renamed but in this specific case that's not what's happening.

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 00:00

Mackmacking · 15/05/2024 16:33

This is going to blow your mind but not all trans people are dysphoric. Secondly, why do you assume they got pregnant through sex?

My assumption that they got pregnant through sex was in response to another poster suggesting the trans man’s pregnancy could have been unplanned and unwanted eg as a result of sexual assault. In my response I decided that rape was a more likely way of getting pregnant than sexual assault, maybe I’m wrong there? I’m not a hcp. What kind of sexual assault generally results in pregnancy?

on your other point, genuinely I would be interested to hear more about trans/dysphoria not always going hand in hand if “not all trans people are dysphoric”. If it’s not gender dysphoria then what is the trigger/process/mechanism by which they come to realise they are trans?

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 00:08

Tandora · 15/05/2024 18:03

I totally get why that is jarring, and no I don’t like the erasure of the word women.

I do not want to be referred to as a “person with a vagina”. (Indeed, it’s the “gender critical feminists” who are insisting these days that everything be organised around and defined by genitals and who does and doesn’t have a vagina- one of the reasons I vehemently oppose “gender critical” ideology).

But I don’t see anything wrong with saying “women and other people who menstruate”.

Edited

But why does that apply to female-related issues yet in the equivalent male-related literature it is men and men only, no people with prostates or people with penises. For me, that clearly demonstrates that it is misogyny disguised and justified as inclusivity. If language for both sexes had been changed, I’d probably not take that much notice, however that is not the case and I don’t believe that it’s ok.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 06:46

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 00:00

My assumption that they got pregnant through sex was in response to another poster suggesting the trans man’s pregnancy could have been unplanned and unwanted eg as a result of sexual assault. In my response I decided that rape was a more likely way of getting pregnant than sexual assault, maybe I’m wrong there? I’m not a hcp. What kind of sexual assault generally results in pregnancy?

on your other point, genuinely I would be interested to hear more about trans/dysphoria not always going hand in hand if “not all trans people are dysphoric”. If it’s not gender dysphoria then what is the trigger/process/mechanism by which they come to realise they are trans?

I will find some articles and links where trans people talk about it.

https://www.gendergp.com/not-all-trans-people-experience-gender-dysphoria/

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/xs0mdy/can_you_be_transgender_without_dysphoria/

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/1/18/do-you-need-gender-dysphoria-be-trans

Most of the trans men i know who have been pregnant used IUI.

Not All Trans People Experience Gender Dysphoria

There is an erroneous assumption often made outside of the transgender community that all trans people experience gender dysphoria. This isn't actually true – GenderGP explains why

https://www.gendergp.com/not-all-trans-people-experience-gender-dysphoria

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 06:51

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 00:08

But why does that apply to female-related issues yet in the equivalent male-related literature it is men and men only, no people with prostates or people with penises. For me, that clearly demonstrates that it is misogyny disguised and justified as inclusivity. If language for both sexes had been changed, I’d probably not take that much notice, however that is not the case and I don’t believe that it’s ok.

https://prostatecanceruk.org/prostate-information-and-support/prostate-tests/prostate-cancer-diagnosis-in-trans-women

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/equality-and-diversity-guidance/lgbtplus-equality-in-medicine/inclusive-care-of-trans-and-non-binary-patients

All new literature will use inclusive language. Much of the literature aimed at people who were AMAB in SH clinics is already inclusive.

How prostate cancer is diagnosed in trans women

How prostate cancer is diagnosed in trans women

https://prostatecanceruk.org/prostate-information-and-support/prostate-tests/prostate-cancer-diagnosis-in-trans-women

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 06:54

lifeturnsonadime · 15/05/2024 22:14

@Name5

I can see where you are coming from from a personal level because my own daughter nearly fell down that rabbit hole.

Keeping the doors open for young women who have been led to believe they are men is very important, especially because so many of them are vulnerable as has been evidenced by Cass.

I think a lot of resentment here is comes from the fact that we are having dehumanising language imposed on us by HPAs. You only have to look at the contempt of the one who insists that we are cis. I can understand why you take this personally on the part of your child but I don't think that the answer is to continue with pandering to delusions. The answer is to fight to stop the 'health care' and kinds of surgeries that are putting vulnerable young women at risk in the first place.

I said youre an Other if you're not cis despite being AFAB and still identifying as a woman. I never insist anyone is cis who swears they are not. Cis women are women who were AFAB and agree that they are still cis women.

You dont agree youre a cis woman so when im talking about different groups of women, youll be the Other women I mention aside from the cis and trans women.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 16/05/2024 06:58

Transwomen are men, they are not a subset of women

transmen are women however much they might rail against it, they are a subset of women

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 07:19

hayleyrabbit · 15/05/2024 18:24

It absolutely is an ideology and it has nothing to do with biological fact or science. It is so anti-scientific , in fact, that “Flat-terfer” would be a much more appropriate label than “gender critical” , since there is nothing “gender critical” about the ideology at all- it is a neo-fascist movement promoting gender essentialism

This is actually very funny. 😂

I love the idea that refusing to live in someone else's imagination is 'anti-scientific'.

duvelmonkey · 16/05/2024 07:44

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 00:08

But why does that apply to female-related issues yet in the equivalent male-related literature it is men and men only, no people with prostates or people with penises. For me, that clearly demonstrates that it is misogyny disguised and justified as inclusivity. If language for both sexes had been changed, I’d probably not take that much notice, however that is not the case and I don’t believe that it’s ok.

@Oncetwicethreetimesalady

I have asked this twice on this thread.
I have given examples but as yet I haven’t seen any language that says men with (insert male body part or organ)

I searched yesterday and found dozen of examples for biological women in health articles and such like.

Cervix Havers
People with Vaginas
Chest Feeders

I found nothing pertaining to body parts to describe men.

valensiwalensi · 16/05/2024 07:50

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/05/2024 21:35

Absolutely this.

Do you honestly think a trans man doesn’t know they are a biological woman?

hayleyrabbit · 16/05/2024 08:07

I think a lot of resentment here is comes from the fact that we are having dehumanising language imposed on us by HPAs. You only have to look at the contempt of the one who insists that we are cis.

And with such aggression and glee.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/05/2024 08:09

Do you honestly think a trans man doesn’t know they are a biological woman?

I honestly don't really care. If they're giving birth then they're a woman. If they can handle that they can handle being called a woman for this purpose.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 08:29

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 06:54

I said youre an Other if you're not cis despite being AFAB and still identifying as a woman. I never insist anyone is cis who swears they are not. Cis women are women who were AFAB and agree that they are still cis women.

You dont agree youre a cis woman so when im talking about different groups of women, youll be the Other women I mention aside from the cis and trans women.

Wasn't it wonderful when we had words that described the biological reality and there was one word that described the class of humans with bodies capable of requiring maternity services to give birth?

And no, if a woman doesn't agree that society should be divided by a made up, regressive notion of gender and therefore doesn't 'identify' as cis, it doesn't make her trans or non binary. She's a woman, just like every other human who might require maternity care for the birthing of her baby.

On an individual level it is clearly polite to address a person as they wish to be addressed but this is going to far. What it is really doing is making the word woman meaningless. It is beyond offensive to claim to women have more in common with trans women/ men (on the basis of what exactly? / Stereotypes) than the women who identify as trans men and then require maternity services.

'Women' are not a set of stereotypes, we are not non men or non trans/ non-binary. We are not 'other'. We are fully human and are necessary to ensure the continued existence of the human race, everyone of us was born because a woman gave birth to us, many many of us do not consent to this erasure. The fact that some women deny that they are women and then go on to do the thing that only women can do does not mean that we should consent to this erasure to make them feel better about their delusions.

That you cannot see the societal harm in this is baffling to me.

Women and children are the losers every time to this identity quasi religion. I thought that one of the key aspects for HCPs was 'first do no harm'. To blindly back something that is clearly harmful as a HCP is frankly beyond the pale at this point.