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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

“Women and birthing people. “

473 replies

Riapia · 13/05/2024 18:11

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 12:09

The reason that it's in the UK media is because women, a lot of them women who posted on this website, made their feelings clear that they didn't accept that males should be treated as women and there were protests etc. There was very little coverage of it in the U.K. media before 2017.

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 12:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 12:06

Trans women are people who were assigned male, but transitioned to women. Thats why they are trans women and not trans men

But I was talking about female people who some people think of as "trans women". I don't believe in gender identity ideology so it's all equally meaningless to me.

And as an HCP you know that babies' sex isn't decided at their birth, don't you?

Babies’ biological sex is an interesting point.
do hcp still fill in the forms stating that they’re male or female? Might that be offensive to some trans/gender-fluid/non-binary parents? Labelling their child in a way which could potentially turn out to be distressing for the child in future? How do hcp avoid “misgendering” newborn babies?

biological sex is something we’ve recorded for babies in healthcare for a very long time. If it’s not important, why do we record it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 12:22

If the poster is an HCP they will know how important a person's sex is to human health.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 12:24

Name5 · 16/05/2024 11:32

@lifeturnsonadime it is heartbreaking.

A high percentage of autistic girls make up ftm. It's in the Cass report. 1 in 4?
They are seeking belonging, they feel different and are often excluded. Along comes the transactivists and bingo (or should I say glitter?) you can be your true self, you're trans my darling. Few are and I agree pregnancy to them might hold a serious mental health risk.
I have never told my DD she is a man. I have been hauled over the coals on MN for this. You're dead naming your daughter etc. However I see a very slow detransisition in her and her group of friends. Perhaps it was a fashion but it was a very dangerous one. We had all the name games at school and truly terrified teachers. I put a stop to that. My DD is studying a medical subject and the coursework now covers gender idealogy. Thank God for that. I'd rather not say what she is studying but it did start the process of her questioning what she had been told. I was no longer the enemy.
That's why I don't worry about an additional two words. But mixed services, hell no.

Flowers my own daughter is autistic and was almost referred to a gender clinic by CAMHS when she was 12, because she prefers the feeling of boys clothes (SPD) and she doesn't communicate like other girls (no shit sherlock she's autistic!).

It's barbaric that this has been allowed to happen to our daughters, it feels to me like a form of eugenics, especially because some of them will have gone on to become infertile as a result of this 'healthcare'.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 12:25

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lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 12:40

And @Name5 I'm glad that your daughter is starting to see the truth, and well done you for holding the line. It is so hard to do that in the face of all the people who call us bigots for refusing to harm our children. I have been thrown out of autistic parenting groups for heresy for being a 'non believer' and expressing concerns about harms to autistic children.

It is interesting that your daughter is coming around as a result of the course she is studying.

I have 2 autistic children my eldest is a boy, when he was really struggling with his mental health / school refusing and refusing to access therapy I pushed him towards psychology GCSE at home. This obliquely helped him to understand himself and to be kinder to himself. What you are describing is similar.

Name5 · 16/05/2024 13:00

@lifeturnsonadime it has been a journey but I held firm. My DD and I both have Jessica Rabbit bods (mines a bit old and large! ). There was one psychiatrist who after fifteen minutes offered a taverstock referal. I told the DD she could make her own way there. Ditto legal name change. Neither happened. I do get the feeling of difference and my daughter had suffered trauma and school refusal because of it.
When I was at school we had two girls who were very masculine. One lives with her wife, the other I have never seen again. Perhaps she transitioned.
I have a gay BFF and it is OK with me. My son has a number of gay friends. My dds friends are a very mixed bag. It's the way of the world.
I do think in schools they should explain the dangers of cross sex hormones. Most people think it just gives natal women facial hair. They also naively think they can stop and no harm done. We have a tsunami coming. It's started in America.
Listen to the Chloe Cole podcast if you haven't heard it.

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 13:26

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 11:24

By acknowledging the subset of non-person women who are neither cis or trans? Make it make sense.

Deluded women are still women.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 13:59

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Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:00

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 13:26

Deluded women are still women.

I know. I didnt say these deluded people arent women. Im just acknowledging they dont think they are cis or trans.

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 14:04

@Mackmacking this is from one of your links above

“TERFs claim that because trans women were not socialized as women since birth, have not suffered direct misogyny (and can never suffer it having not been born a woman), they can never claim to be a woman. To TERFs, womanhood is defined by suffering, by pain. There is no joy in a TERF's womanhood. It makes me pity them, or as much as I can pity them given the harm TERFs cause to the transgender community.”

You can’t claim to be a woman if you aren’t one. You can’t be a woman if you have male hormones and reproductive organs. That doesn’t deny anybody’s right to dress or present themselves in anyway they choose but it also doesn’t mean they have extra rights that diminish anyone else’s.

there is an almost universally “painful” or “distressing” experience of womanhood alluded to above which natal males within the trans community do not experience. Mostly related to biological functions; giving birth, female puberty, decades of menstruation, PMS, contraception, abortion, fertility issues, gynaecological problems, miscarriages, pregnancy, traumatic births, endometriosis, post-menopausal issues like osteoporosis etc sadly this list is by no means exhaustive.

So yes, it often is painful to be a woman. I think the majority of biological women would opt out every single bit of that pain if they possibly could. That would bring me joy in abundance.

But sadly we can’t. Even if we say we are men, we just aren’t.

if I could keep my biological capacity and simply dispense with the inconveniences of the female reproductive system, experiences of endemic, direct and indirect misogyny as well as the disadvantages of my female socialisation, I would be fucking overjoyed. Where do I sign up?! It’s an absolute wonder why the majority of women aren’t just choosing to be men because it sure would be a helluva easier life. But sadly, the reality most of us understand is that we can’t just choose to be men, our biology doesn’t permit us, no matter how hard we might try.

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 14:05

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:00

I know. I didnt say these deluded people arent women. Im just acknowledging they dont think they are cis or trans.

They can think what they like,there's no need for anyone else to get dragged into their delusions.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:08

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 12:15

Babies’ biological sex is an interesting point.
do hcp still fill in the forms stating that they’re male or female? Might that be offensive to some trans/gender-fluid/non-binary parents? Labelling their child in a way which could potentially turn out to be distressing for the child in future? How do hcp avoid “misgendering” newborn babies?

biological sex is something we’ve recorded for babies in healthcare for a very long time. If it’s not important, why do we record it?

The only couple ive encountered who were raising a gender neutral child were a straight couple. It made no difference to the care they had in labour or at birth. Everything was documented as normal including their preferred pronouns for the baby.

None of the Queer couples have ever mentioned anything like that but tend not to be fussed by the baby's assigned gender. As in, if they find out theyre having a boy, they dont assume that theyll never like ballet like their parent does just because the baby has a penis. But hardly anyone thinks along those lines any more anyway.

They also refer to their child as a boy or a girl presumably unless the child says otherwise.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:10

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Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:10

WickedSerious · 16/05/2024 14:05

They can think what they like,there's no need for anyone else to get dragged into their delusions.

I agree but on sites like these, they make thread after thread about these imagined threats to their womanhood. As someone who is "with woman", I dont mind hanging out and discussing their main concerns with (some) patience and compassion. The deluded cannot help their delusions.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:12

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Youre angry that I provide evidence based indvidualised care to maternity service users? This really does seem like something only a psychologist can help with. I can provide some means tested links where you can work some of this out with someone trained to work with people like you. Would you like them?

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:14

Oncetwicethreetimesalady · 16/05/2024 14:04

@Mackmacking this is from one of your links above

“TERFs claim that because trans women were not socialized as women since birth, have not suffered direct misogyny (and can never suffer it having not been born a woman), they can never claim to be a woman. To TERFs, womanhood is defined by suffering, by pain. There is no joy in a TERF's womanhood. It makes me pity them, or as much as I can pity them given the harm TERFs cause to the transgender community.”

You can’t claim to be a woman if you aren’t one. You can’t be a woman if you have male hormones and reproductive organs. That doesn’t deny anybody’s right to dress or present themselves in anyway they choose but it also doesn’t mean they have extra rights that diminish anyone else’s.

there is an almost universally “painful” or “distressing” experience of womanhood alluded to above which natal males within the trans community do not experience. Mostly related to biological functions; giving birth, female puberty, decades of menstruation, PMS, contraception, abortion, fertility issues, gynaecological problems, miscarriages, pregnancy, traumatic births, endometriosis, post-menopausal issues like osteoporosis etc sadly this list is by no means exhaustive.

So yes, it often is painful to be a woman. I think the majority of biological women would opt out every single bit of that pain if they possibly could. That would bring me joy in abundance.

But sadly we can’t. Even if we say we are men, we just aren’t.

if I could keep my biological capacity and simply dispense with the inconveniences of the female reproductive system, experiences of endemic, direct and indirect misogyny as well as the disadvantages of my female socialisation, I would be fucking overjoyed. Where do I sign up?! It’s an absolute wonder why the majority of women aren’t just choosing to be men because it sure would be a helluva easier life. But sadly, the reality most of us understand is that we can’t just choose to be men, our biology doesn’t permit us, no matter how hard we might try.

Everyone can be a victim of misogyny. Misogyny is why masculinity is so heavily policed.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:16

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/05/2024 12:03

They can and do. Legally, anatomically, socially. There is nothing you can do about it.

They can't. Legal fiction is still fiction. Facts are facts.

Its about as factual as a fact can get. For instance, most of us can be sacked for disputing it

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/05/2024 14:19

It's about as factual as a fact can get. For instance, most of us can be sacked for disputing it

Not anymore, thankfully.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:20

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:12

Youre angry that I provide evidence based indvidualised care to maternity service users? This really does seem like something only a psychologist can help with. I can provide some means tested links where you can work some of this out with someone trained to work with people like you. Would you like them?

You appear to have comprehension issues, I am angry that you are calling women who do not identify as cis, as 'others', or this little gem 'non person-woman who are neither cis or trans'.

I don't care what you call women who think they are men or non binary. I care about the contempt with which you treat women who don't subscribe to your ideology.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/05/2024 12:06

Trans women are people who were assigned male, but transitioned to women. Thats why they are trans women and not trans men

But I was talking about female people who some people think of as "trans women". I don't believe in gender identity ideology so it's all equally meaningless to me.

And as an HCP you know that babies' sex isn't decided at their birth, don't you?

People who think trans men are called trans women are wrong. Just like people who think South Africa is just the south of Africa.

I agree it isnt decided at birth. Its assigned according to their anatomy. The person ultimately decides their sex/gender. I have decided to leave mine as assigned because it matched how I feel about myself and my body. It wasnt much of a dilemma for me.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/05/2024 14:22

The person ultimately decides their sex/gender

This is hilarious.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:22

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:16

Its about as factual as a fact can get. For instance, most of us can be sacked for disputing it

No they can't.

Knowing that sex is real is a protected belief despite what you gender ideologues wish it to be.

Mackmacking · 16/05/2024 14:23

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:20

You appear to have comprehension issues, I am angry that you are calling women who do not identify as cis, as 'others', or this little gem 'non person-woman who are neither cis or trans'.

I don't care what you call women who think they are men or non binary. I care about the contempt with which you treat women who don't subscribe to your ideology.

Edited

Well if a woman says they arent a person and are neither cis or trans, they leave limited options when one is needing to distinguish between these groups of women.

I dont ask anyone who uses maternity services for their views on any social or political issues. It would be wholly unprofessional.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/05/2024 14:23

People who think that trans men are men are wrong.

People who think that trans women are women are wrong.

It is hilarious and quite frightening giving that you are an HCP, that you don't know this @Mackmacking

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