“Women and birthing people. “

[Riapia]

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

So they know. We know. Everybody knows that everybody knows. So why all this ridiculous fudging of language.

I agree with @AccidentallyWesAnderson@AccidentallyWesAnderson, however let's say you're a 18 year transman who has been shunned by your family so you try to act straight. You have sex and are pregnant. You go to the doctors in terror and there is a leaflet that says woman and birthing people. You might just believe someone in that practice might be kind. Just two words that might save a life. Mother or baby.

Save a life? As in stop the trans man taking their own life?

@OkPedro a growing number do and self harm.

This is awful.

These young women have been so let down. How anyone can argue in favour of transitioning young people in the light of these fact and the alarming statistics of detransitioners is disgraceful.

Gender clinics needs to start dealing with the underlying mental health issues that leads women to reject notions of 'womanhood' rather than compounding them by selling young people a lie. These women know they are not really men. Of course they do. It's utterly heartbreaking.

it doesn't make her trans or non binary.

I didnt say it did. I said when it comes to women, there are trans women, cis women, and women who dont identify as cis or trans. I will call those non-cis-Or- trans "Others" when needing to distinguish between these three distinct groups.

There is no harm being done to any women through inclusivity. Especially when it is additive.

This is so utterly offensive.

You have been brainwashed.

I am not non - cis - or trans. The fact you would call me that to distinguish me from other groups erases the fundamental essence of who and what I am.

I am a woman. Just like any other human with the reproductive capacity to bear a child, however she choses to describe herself.

There is so much to analyse and evaluate in these sources!

I’ll start with prostate cancer one.
They use the word man and man only on almost every page and the whole website is coded masculine. They use a man icon for their logo. The colours are blue and black.

there is no repeated suffix of “people with prostates” for every reference to men/man.
What there is, sensibly, is a single section with the headline “who has a prostate?” Where they explain that trans/non-binary people may also have prostates.
that is absolutely fine. It’s clear, inclusive, medically and biologically accurate. Great.

At the same time I note that they are asking for input with a survey as to how to move forward for trans individuals. Any future changes will be justifiable, evidence-based on research. Again, that sounds reasonable to me. Where have the equivalent consultations been within women’s health?

When someone presents to give birth they are a woman. That's a biological fact - which trumps ANY amount of 'ideology'. You know that, right?

Sure but sometimes i need to distinguish between cis women, trans women, and Other women. So thats how i will do that, by calling them Other women.

And therein your show your complete and utter contempt for women.

No we respect the identity of the individuals we look after and provide them personalised care. There are plenty of "facts" i feel are pertinent to the people who use maternity services, but that isnt my job to provide them. My opinions, like yours, are moot.

i could go on for hours about all the sources and assertions but I don’t have time to at the moment.
re: gender dysphoria not being essential to be trans. Ok, so you can be trans without dysphoria. Not a problem this is a free country, you can literally wear what you like, dress how you like, cut your hair how you like, do whatever you like. But, do you need or “qualify” for nhs treatment?

for example, I ruptured my cruciate ligament (confirmed by scan) and the normal NHS pathway would be to have it reconstructed. However, I experienced none of the normal problems that most do with cruciate ruptures. No instability, no pain or discomfort. Therefore, it was decided that I would not receive the reconstruction operation as I didn’t need it to relieve any issues.
so, I might have the same condition as many people who absolutely needed the operation but quite rightly the nhs wasn’t going to waste money on operating on me.

it follows that interventions (language, treatments, operations etc) are only necessary if they relieve distress or pain.
so, we need to establish the fact of the distress or pain before we take appropriate, measured action that the evidence demonstrates brings about a level of relief.

By acknowledging the subset of non-person women who are neither cis or trans? Make it make sense.

Sure but sometimes i need to distinguish between cis women, trans women, and Other women. So thats how i will do that, by calling them Other women.

There's nothing to distinguish. Believe what you want but don't foist that on anyone else. Ideological beliefs should be left at the door, especially in healthcare.

I wouldn't think very highly, or respectfully, of a HCP who subscribes to an ideology that can cause great harm to women and girls.

Im not sure what side of equality you are on btw, but this is definitely an obstacle for many trans people who require treatment from the healthcare system (not all do and only transition socially). Sometimes, trans people have to exaggerate a gendered performance to professionals just to get the medication they need. Once they have it, they can just be themselves.

Make it make sense.

The irony.

'non person-woman who are neither cis or trans'.

What a complete farce. If you can't see how that is erasure of women in the context of maternity care you are either stupid or trolling or brainwashed.

All to appease a woman who is doing a thing that only women can do under some form of delusion that she is a man or has a special personality which means she calls herself non-binary.

What a waste of NHS resources.

The only thing that matters when it comes to maternity care is the health of the mother and baby, you appear to have lost sight of that completely.

How? Usually respecting someones internal view of themselves is fundamental in not harming them. It seems like you feel that I would have to agree with your internal view of trans men (or trans people) to not harm the women who use maternity services.

@lifeturnsonadime it is heartbreaking.

A high percentage of autistic girls make up ftm. It's in the Cass report. 1 in 4?
They are seeking belonging, they feel different and are often excluded. Along comes the transactivists and bingo (or should I say glitter?) you can be your true self, you're trans my darling. Few are and I agree pregnancy to them might hold a serious mental health risk.
I have never told my DD she is a man. I have been hauled over the coals on MN for this. You're dead naming your daughter etc. However I see a very slow detransisition in her and her group of friends. Perhaps it was a fashion but it was a very dangerous one. We had all the name games at school and truly terrified teachers. I put a stop to that. My DD is studying a medical subject and the coursework now covers gender idealogy. Thank God for that. I'd rather not say what she is studying but it did start the process of her questioning what she had been told. I was no longer the enemy.
That's why I don't worry about an additional two words. But mixed services, hell no.

Usually respecting someone's internal view of themselves is fundamental in not harming them.

Would you affirm an anorexic's view of themselves as fat?

I certainly dont argue with them that theyre not while providing maternity care. Pretty sure even MHPs dont do that.

Look you have said youre not a person, you have said you are not cis, i assume you are not trans, so i can only label you as a non-person Other woman. There arent any more categories of women in this context. I had to make one up for women like you!

I just think you're on the wind up.

'A line of persons with uteruses'

One step away from calling women incubators. Not all women give birth. Every single human being who has ever given birth was a woman (or a girl).

That is an utterly chilling description. How fucking dehumanising can you get. People really have taken leave or their senses.