“Women and birthing people. “

[Riapia]

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

is this ok with you?

"The menopause is a natural process which people with a vagina go through as they get older however, in some cases, is medically induced. As oestrogen levels start to drop, periods become less frequent and eventually stop altogether. For some, their periods stop quickly, but for others, it can take a few months or a few years. Everyone is different.

Boots from 2023

I totally get why that is jarring, and no I don’t like the erasure of the word women.

I do not want to be referred to as a “person with a vagina”. (Indeed, it’s the “gender critical feminists” who are insisting these days that everything be organised around and defined by genitals and who does and doesn’t have a vagina- one of the reasons I vehemently oppose “gender critical” ideology).

But I don’t see anything wrong with saying “women and other people who menstruate”.

Is 'simply living in the real world' supposed to be ironic?

Gender critical isn't an ideology. It's based on biological fact. Science. Gender ideology (no one needs to subscribe to an ideology if they don't want to) should have no place in healthcare. That doesn't equate to denying trans people exist or that they should be treated with respect. They do have the same rights as everyone else after all.

*shouldn't.

do not want to be referred to as a “person with a vagina”. (Indeed, it’s the “gender critical feminists” who are insisting these days that everything be organised around and defined by genitals and who does and doesn’t have a vagina- one of the reasons I vehemently oppose “gender critical” ideology).

Oh bollock tandora, you’ve been posting about this long enough. I bet you can’t find a single shred of evidence to back up that ludicrous statement

Is 'simply living in the real world' supposed to be ironic?

No. because trans people exist whether you like it or not.

Gender critical isn't an ideology. It's based on biological fact. Science

It absolutely is an ideology and it has nothing to do with biological fact or science. It is so anti-scientific , in fact, that “Flat-terfer” would be a much more appropriate label than “gender critical” , since there is nothing “gender critical” about the ideology at all- it is a neo-fascist movement promoting gender essentialism.

They do have the same rights as everyone else after all.
except the right to have their gender respected apparently. It’s like criminalising gay sex and then saying “well they do have the same rights [to have heterosexual sex] as everyone else after all*!!!

Tandora,

The reason the use of such language as "person with vagina" came about is because some very vocal trans lobbyist do not want to be referred to by their biological sex. This all fine until it means women are no longer being referred to by their biological sex but (as above) by dehumanising language such as people with vaginas.

There are no GC feminist who want anything arrange by genitals.

GC feminist would like things that are currently arranged by sex (like sport, health support information and changing rooms etc.) to mean biological sex for obvious reasons.

There is only one group obsessed by gentials and sex stereotypes and it is not GC feminists. How can you obsess about factual based reality beliefs.

Not surprised in the slightest to see 'flat earther' mentioned.

People can deny their biological reality all they like but it's the height of narcissism to try and change language and fact because they have rejected it. Biological fact is vital in healthcare.

Nothing misogynistic about that at all...🙄

It absolutely is an ideology and it has nothing to do with biological fact or science. It is so anti-scientific , in fact, that “Flat-terfer” would be a much more appropriate label than “gender critical” , since there is nothing “gender critical” about the ideology at all- it is a neo-fascist movement promoting gender essentialism

This is actually very funny. 😂

I do not want to be referred to as a “person with a vagina”. (Indeed, it’s the “gender critical feminists” who are insisting these days that everything be organised around and defined by genitals and who does and doesn’t have a vagina- one of the reasons I vehemently oppose “gender critical” ideology)

You are so amazingly wrong here that it's hard to know where to start. Biological sex IS about your genitals - end of story. Men have penises and women have vaginas. Men produce sperm and women produce eggs. It's very simple.

What you do and who you are is down to your personality. Wearing blue does not mean that you are male - ditto trousers, short hair, playing with trucks. Women are not all soft, gentle creatures who wear pink and faint when they see a mouse. Gender is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Get over it.

@Lavender14 . To be fair it matters not how the trans man found themselves pregnant. Even if in a worse case they were raped it still means they were ovulating and menstruating. That's not something any man can do. Only a woman.

Sex is binary. There is no need to pretend otherwise. Gender is made up social stereotypes.

Except the example in the OP isn't changing language for everyone. It says women and birthing people. I wouldn't support a demand that everyone is referred to as a "birthing person", but it sounds like you're demanding that everyone is called a "woman" while they're a patient if they've already indicated that they don't wish to be called that. Are you arguing that HCPs should refuse patients requests to be referred to in a way that makes them feel dignified and respected? HCPs are able to acknowledge someone's biological sex where it pertains to their healthcare and respect patients preferences on how they wish to be referred to at the same time. It's really not that hard, I promise.

Gender critical isn't an ideology. It's based on biological fact. Science

"It absolutely is an ideology and it has nothing to do with biological fact or science. It is so anti-scientific , in fact, that “Flat-terfer” would be a much more appropriate label than “gender critical” , since there is nothing “gender critical” about the ideology at all- it is a neo-fascist movement promoting gender essentialism."

Anti scientific? Neo-fascist?
Are you ok? Fucking hell. Step away from the internet for a bit eh? Visit an art gallery or do some colouring or something.

"There is no need to pretend otherwise"
There is if it makes it harder for a specific group of people to access maternity care and to feel safe and represented. There is if not doing so is creating a risk of potentially poorer outcomes, birth trauma and poorer post partum mental health of the person giving birth. There is if that demographic have fed back that it's made their experience of pregnancy and birth more difficult than it needed to be.

sounds like you're demanding that everyone is called a "woman" while they're a patient if they've already indicated that they don't wish to be called that. Are you arguing that HCPs should refuse patients requests to be referred to in a way that makes them feel dignified and respected? HCPs are able to acknowledge someone's biological sex where it pertains to their healthcare and respect patients preferences on how they wish to be referred to at the same time. It's really not that hard, I promise.

I'm not demanding anything, if you are accessing maternity services you ARE a woman, an adult human female, regardless of how you identify and if you have rejected your sex (even though that's impossible). There is going to be language used that has been used for years and that is 'woman' and 'female'.

If a HCP wishes to refer to their patient how their patients requests then fine, but it's not fair to stand there and demand (the demands appear to come from one side) to be called something when they're clearly the opposite, and pregnant, all whilst the HCP's are trying to do their job. After all TRA's call misgendering 'literal violence'. Why should they be sitting there worried that they might misgender someone whilst providing maternity care? Narcissism.

Except it's wrong for HCP to choose whether they respect a patients preferences or beliefs. Are you a HCP? Because if you're not, we really don't need you to worry about us finding it hard. As I said, it's really really not. If you are a HCP, I'd be very worried that you find it so hard to contain your own personal thoughts and opinions while treating patients. I don't think you are though? I think you're trying to hide your disagreement with the existence with trans people behind concern for their healthcare and you're not doing a very good job of it - and if you're not a HCP it's also literally not your job!

Which is fine in the context of a one to one situation. In the same way a doctor would talk to anyone who has specific issues.

The danger to women is that they become more marginalised than they already are. Already on the thread people have given examples of woman's experience being generalised into body parts. It is a woman's experience whether some chose to identify as anything else.
It's why the term " cis" is unnecessary and offensive. There are no categories of women. There are many categories of identify, trans bring one.

I don't see any real value in pretending that any person who can give birth is not a woman. Sorry. Live you life as you like, dress as you like, etc, but if you're an adult female, you're a woman.

It's really very simple isn't it?

Yep. This

If the terminology women and birthing people saves a natal women from having a hysterectomy and or removing breast tissue surely we are protecting them?
Inclusive health professionals may save someone who ultimately detransisitions from limiting their choices. If FTM are made to feel unwelcome when newly pregnant or considering pregnancy we are being beyond judgemental. There are shades of masculinity and feminity. Blame the sodding Internet for confusing young people.
And yes I have a ftm DD who will birth her own children. We do need to talk about these things and object where necessary and show kindness when appropriate.

Yes,women can delude themselves into believing that they can 'identify' their way out of their biological sex but the simple truth is that they are and always will be women.

But is there a single jot of evidence to suggest that this terminology will stop women getting hysterectomies? I seriously doubt it.

The women you're referencing here need intensive therapy. Not the rest of the world denying reality because of their issues with accepting what they are.