DD and her uncle...AIBU to feel uncomfortable?

[maay]

My daughter is 12. In January her uncle started giving her guitar lessons as she really wanted to learn. He has been playing for years and sometimes teaches lessons, so when he offered to teach her for free, it was too good to turn down. The lessons are at our house. She's really been enjoying it. I still offer him money, but it's always a firm no.

He took her to see a band that they both like in March. His wife was also there. DD came back with loads of merch. I was thankful but told him he didn't need to do all of that! I felt like it was really cool they were bonding so well though. DH loved to see it as well.

He has bought her quite a few things now other than that merch. Like a necklace, posters, figurines, he even offered to buy her expensive trainers when she asked me for them in front of him. I said no to that one, because me and DH already decided she didn't need them. (girl has a lot.)

DH and I check her phone regularly. They text each other probably once or twice a week. It's brief and they just send each other memes and links to music they like. I haven't seen an actual conversation with them, so think I'm happy with that.

Yesterday he was at our house. We were all in the same room talking. DD went and sat on his lap and it made me feel uncomfortable. Only because she never sits on an adults lap anymore? I wasn't going to make a scene or anything, so I just made an excuse and asked her to come help me with something in a different room. When she went back into the room, she didn't sit on his lap again.

The same day, he dropped into conversation about how "Asian and half Asian girls are the most beautiful" he looked at DD and she giggled. DD is half Asian. I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable with it all. But I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable? I don't want to break an innocent bond, but I feel like I missed some red flags and I'm now seeing them? DH says he just loves his niece and he doesn't think we have to worry.

You live a very sheltered life if you genuinely cannot see any possible red flags in what OP has described. For the safety of your own kids I kindly suggest that you educate yourself on how grooming can (and does) manifest

I believe you should trust your gut instincts here. At that age you are going through puberty, just becoming aware of yourself and would be a lot less likely to sit on someone's knee IMO. I was close with my uncles and aunts and never in a million years would have sat on their knee at that age.

And the fact it was done in front of you does not prove it is innocent in anyway. I would stop any unsupervised contact between them. And I also agree with a pp that there could be messages on other platforms!

It could all be innocent but better to react now and monitor things than to find out that you were right down the line.

Grooming is done to the parents as well as the child.

In a healthy family with very good boundaries, "DD get off X's lap, it's not appropriate" "DD dropping hints about expensive things in front of X isn't cool". In an unhealthy or unboundaried family <tumbleweed> because everyone is too uncomfortable or doesn't recognise issues.

OP you have to say things in the moment. Him: "Asian and half Asian girls are the most beautiful". You: "X maybe don't objectify a 12 yo" or "beauty isn't what DD should be focussing on at 12". In fact, remind him and her of her age any chance you get.

It's just crossed my mind when reading other comments that if DD feels comfortable sitting on his knee especially in front of both her parents then it's "something that she's done innocently before and it's familiar to her without even thinking about it". However he is a different matter. I don't even want to think about the possibility that he has had her sit on his knee to show her how to play the guitar - arms wrapped round her - from his point of view it's perverse, uncle or no uncle.

I have a 17 year old DD and the stuff she's told us over the past 6 years is jaw dropping. Every story she's told us about any friend that's caused her concern we've had to flip it quickly and turn it into a 'this is what you should do if you end up in x y z situation' - it's all about educating them as and when they tell you anything about anybody that you don't really want to hear. Never break her confidence and always assure her that she can tell you anything and you're on her side, and stick to it - she needs you more than she knows and 12 upwards is hard for girls especially.

She’s never sat on his lap before in front of you? I’d be digging into that to find out if it was the first time.

Edited to remove a question already answered.

If she's comfortable to sit on his lap in front of you (even though that's not something she would usually do, even with her own parents) then I'd be concerned about what was happening during their unsupervised guitar lessons. I'd also find it odd that he has suddenly started buying her things now she's reached this age, has he always tried to spoil her with gifts or is it just a recent thing? That coupled with the beautiful comment just makes me feel very uneasy.

Normally I'd say you are reading too much into it. But the sitting on his lap thing is giving me a bad feeling.

No-one plonks themselves on someone lap unless they have done it before.

I also have a 12 year old DD and no way in hell would she sit on anyone's lap. Its a struggle to even get her to say hello to people who aren't family tbh. This is a huge red flag and would make me extremely uncomfortable to the point that I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue.

What is the set up for the guitar lessons? Are they in a closed room away from everyone?

She’s 12 and shouldn’t be sitting on anyone’s lap. I’d focus on that and not if it was invited.

I think you need to have the inevitably uncomfortable conversation with both of them.
Whether it's a crush on her part or grooming on his, the inappropriate behaviour needs to be mentioned and monitored.
Don't ignore the alarm bells to avoid upsetting either of them.
Better address this now than let things slide.

Perhaps monitor like you are but, without talking about Uncle, can you chat to DD about being warey, being modest, what grooming is, to tell you if someone makes her feel uncomfortable and appropriate displays of affection? You could bring up sitting on knees, kissing on lips etc etc.

Leave doors open and keep daughter in a position where you can see her. She might have developed a crush and you don't want her to embarrass herself.

I would also talk to brother about the "half Asians are the most beautiful". comment. Point out that you don't want DD to be focussed on her appearance or to think that it is healthy to think herself the most beautiful or that people would judge her or her girl friends on their appearance.

It's possibly time to encourage DD to join a band and have some fun with music with her own age group.

@maay

Noooo dont sweep your discomfort away.

As others have said, just call it out directly. If he is innocent he will be more mindful of boundaries.

If it is not innocent it will be a warning shot to him that you are watching.

Talk to your daughter as well.

The vast majority of groomers are white, so take your racism elsewhere.

All of this. Very much. @maay, don't pussyfoot around this please.

Grooming happens in the open.
That comment was a shit test imo and i would NOT be having it.
I know 3 of my cousins were raped by other family members... rhe real number is prob higher. Its a very real problem.

I would be wildly unhappy with this and would, with my husband, be having a very direct conversation with your step brother about appropriate behaviour with children and young teens.

I would continue the lessons for now so you arent the bad guy.
But it would be in a room i had access to. Id ensure dh.and i were around and I'd have a nanny cam or two set up to monitor it closely and record any more weirdness.
Any " you are so mature andn beautiful" or "your mum said" type nonsense and uncle dave would not be welcome in my house.again.
Id also be showing the footage to your parents. Do not keep his secrets.

I'd tell him to block her and if i ever find any phone or social media communication of any kind id be going straight to the police.

And no attendance of both dd and him at family parties.

Id also start researching actual guitar reachers now so he can be replaced in a month or so irrespective of his behviour and can give some plausible excuse to DD.

Predators groom families as well- it’s much easier to get access to a child when their parents boundaries have been eroded as well as the child’s.

@maay

If this is a grooming situation my thoughts would be-

The sitting on his lap and him talking about her appearance is definitely not normal or ok. 12 year old girls don’t sit on grown men’s laps- they don’t want to and the men don’t want it either.

What is happening that you haven’t seen that has normalised this level of physical touch for her?

Is he doing it in front of you to gage what he can get away with- to test how far he can push your boundaries, and to normalise something inappropriate so you won’t immediately recognise when he amps up the behaviour?

Also is he relying on you being too polite and unsure of yourself to stop it now, so that in the future it will be much harder for you to walk it back.

This is totally inappropriate. I would say sitting on your own dad's lap at 12 is not appropriate, never mind someone unrelated .
From what OP has said,, this could be heading down a very dangerous path. The uncle shouldn't be encouraging the 12 year old

My brother in law groomed me and abused me from age 13. He met my sister when I was ten. He fooled the whole family. Nip this in the bud OP.

Absolutely disgusting comment. To think people like you, so ignorant and prejudiced, walk amongst us, makes my soul despair.
FYI - Asia is a BIG continent that encompasses a multitude of religions, cultures and ethnicities. Be braver next time and say who you’re really talking about.

My brother spoils my 3yo DD (she's obviously still at an age where close contact is completely normal) so most of this I wouldn't necessarily be fine with, there's a lack of boundaries but it isn't wrong per se.

Most of this wouldn't bother me. The sitting on lap at 12 is a bit fucking weird and would have my Spidey senses tingling, but the comment about ethnicity is just way too far.

The nanny camera is a good idea.

Contact nspcc for advice.

You should never ignore concerns.

Stop the lessons. Either he is an abuser OR he has no boundaries. In either case he is a threat to your daughters well being

not to be horrible but there’s no blood relationship between them, so there’s less of a family barrier if that makes sense. I know shocking things happen to children but I think knowing he isn’t your biological brother nor your husband’s biological brother increases the likelihood of attraction. Ultimately you’ve been a bit lax with their relationship and now is the time to start monitoring it.

I spoil my nieces but after about 8 they don’t sit on my knee, they mither me to pay for their nails and bring them doughnuts and other rubbish my sister won’t pay for!