DD and her uncle...AIBU to feel uncomfortable?

[maay]

My daughter is 12. In January her uncle started giving her guitar lessons as she really wanted to learn. He has been playing for years and sometimes teaches lessons, so when he offered to teach her for free, it was too good to turn down. The lessons are at our house. She's really been enjoying it. I still offer him money, but it's always a firm no.

He took her to see a band that they both like in March. His wife was also there. DD came back with loads of merch. I was thankful but told him he didn't need to do all of that! I felt like it was really cool they were bonding so well though. DH loved to see it as well.

He has bought her quite a few things now other than that merch. Like a necklace, posters, figurines, he even offered to buy her expensive trainers when she asked me for them in front of him. I said no to that one, because me and DH already decided she didn't need them. (girl has a lot.)

DH and I check her phone regularly. They text each other probably once or twice a week. It's brief and they just send each other memes and links to music they like. I haven't seen an actual conversation with them, so think I'm happy with that.

Yesterday he was at our house. We were all in the same room talking. DD went and sat on his lap and it made me feel uncomfortable. Only because she never sits on an adults lap anymore? I wasn't going to make a scene or anything, so I just made an excuse and asked her to come help me with something in a different room. When she went back into the room, she didn't sit on his lap again.

The same day, he dropped into conversation about how "Asian and half Asian girls are the most beautiful" he looked at DD and she giggled. DD is half Asian. I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable with it all. But I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable? I don't want to break an innocent bond, but I feel like I missed some red flags and I'm now seeing them? DH says he just loves his niece and he doesn't think we have to worry.

@maay, I have been in a safeguarding position and have been a whistleblower. I admire the definitive action you have taken to get to the bottom of this disturbing situation. You must be shocked and sickened to the core.

This manipulative predator has been abusing your DD by:
*Insisting that her sitting on his lap with his arms wrapped around to touch her arms/hands will ensure a great future as a guitarist. As a result of the normalization process, she then felt comfortable placing herself on his lap in her family’s presence.

*Flirting by ensuring she knows he is attracted to her beauty, thereby lifting her to peer status.

*Establishing a texting relationship as a ‘bonding’ tactic, at the moment using memes and music — again treating her as a peer.

*OTT gift giving with the secret promise to overstep your parental decision re expensive trainers.

He has likely been using other grooming ploys such as complements, mirroring, confiding, planning for future outings, perhaps lingering eye contact, etc. I do wonder what boundary blurring was exhibited at the concert.

He has absolutely been grooming you and DH to gain access to DD and to normalize their new relationship dynamic. He will also have been grooming his Wife. He undoubtedly used her as a beard at the concert so he could more easily manipulate DD at the cool venue to deepen her trust and reliance on him.

This is a very dangerous man who preys on young people during music lessons and elsewhere. DD isn’t the first, but I pray she is the last. Please notify the police and other proper authorities.

I agree with @MrsTerryPratchett that seeking professional advice is necessary. You and DH need immediate advice regarding how to best help DD. A forensic interview may be ordered. DD will need the support of IC as she processes this violation, as will you and DH.

Sending strength and solidarity, @maay.

I had guitar lessons at that age. No way did the teacher make me sit on his knee. I hope he doesn’t teach other kids as it will be massive safeguarding no no. I’m glad you spotted it and can stop it.

The anime thing creeps me out too. I had to explain to my 12 yr old why she couldn’t dress like in kawaii outfits, like anime girls. She cried as it’s not fair pervy men impact what she’s allowed to wear.

Yeah… believe it! It’s always those CLOSEST to us, OP. Statistically speaking anyways.

It seems like male music teachers are notorious pedos, too. Sorry if that offends, but just look it up.

The sitting on his knee to be the best guitarist is definitely creepy and inappropriate.

It's good you spotted this early and can stop it now.

I’m inclined to think that the difference here is that her uncle is cool. He plays the guitar and us into cool bands. She admires that and looks up to him. He is indulging her and, if you think it is too much then say so, but he’d probably be mortified by any other suggestion.

That is more weird. I think this does need addressing. Don’t feel awkward about it. Just lay down some ground rules. Keep the conversation open with your daughter. No secrets.

You are being very naive if you think that. Often the grooming involves normalisation of such things and then pushing the boundaries.
Doing it in plain sight is often part of the process.

oh no, I am sorry OP. This is definitely not okay. You sound like a great mum and I am sure you will handle this as well as you possibly can. And well done for spotting it so quickly and before things escalated. Your daughter will be okay. Try and get some support for yourself as well. Sending 💐

Ground rules! Surely you would be cutting this man out of your life forever? You do not need to sit on someones lap to learn the bloody guitar.

t seems like male music teachers are notorious pedos, too. Sorry if that offends, but just look it up.

I do find shortening to word paedophile to pedos/paedos fairly offensive.

Hate to say it but the asian girls comment is weird and the fact that she sits on nobody else's lap. I would try to ask her questions about it gently maybe by asking how uncle teaches her guitar. As a parent I would want to know what has gone on behind closed doors. I would stop lessons personally but your daughter will be confused by this. If you do not stop lessons always sit in on the lesson and say your keen to learn also. There would be no more trips alone and get an app to monitor your daughters social media, search history and it also shares what has been texted. The app was great as it showed us text messages of my 13 year old discussing buying a BB gun from a boy at school.Something he was grounded for and got in to a lot of trouble thankfully to the app. Groomers that do this in front of you rely on you to feel paranoid that you are mistaken especially if it is a family member.

I’d think about stopping the lessons. And yes people do stuff in plain sight. I was abused by 2 of my uncles who went under the guise of ‘just loveable larger than life men that couldn’t keep their hands to their selves’ so it was normalised that these disgusting pissheads were just always joking about touching arses etc.

Well done OP! One more child protected by smart parents!

He’s the OP’s brother. We don’t have all the details. That might be necessary. It might not. Only she can decide. But the first step is a frank conversation with ground rules. If it doesn’t go well, or those are broken, then yes. The OP has here eyes open. She is going to protect her daughter.

Ground rules..???? Think it’s a bit last that, no? There is no world where a grown man asks a 12 year old girl (one whom he’s admitted to finding beautiful just makes it even worse!) to sit on his lap in an innocent way!

You absolutely do not need to sit on anybodys knee to learn guitar. My own boyfriend taught me at the time and I wasnt on his knee.

The buying of gifts etc is showing that he buys her things her parents aren't. Its building admiration and trust in him. Its also to use as collateral incase anything happened he can either buy her something else or make her feel bad for the gifts, because why would someone who did that do something wrong?

Id put a stop to the guitar lessons. Just say that you have the funds there for her to take professional lessons now. Make sure they are never in the position of being alone. She is also now at an age where you can talk with her about grooming etc and I think thats quite an important conversation to have sooner rather than later. Dont bring up the uncle, but just a matter of fact conversation along with articles etc she can read.

I had sex at 14 and was coerced into it, your DD is not far from that age.

OP this thread is pretty identifying and to protect your DD I would think about asking for it to be taken down xx

I'm so sorry, but first it wasn't your fault and well done for trusting your gut. I hope you and DD are OK.💐

I agree, now that it is clear that abuse is at play, this thread should be taken down.

@Genevieva if you have children or work with children you need to open your eyes to red flags not just put down ground rules after someone has been grooming a child and their family. Such naive attitudes are unhelpful, this is really serious stuff. Please look out for yourself and any children you have.

@ASandwichNamedKevin

Exactly. Paedophiles aren't known for their adherence to ground rules.

If anyone's in any doubt how blatant these men are they should watch the Jimmy Savile doc on Netflix. It will turn you stomach, break your heart and leave you in no doubt about the nature of grooming.

Oh I'm so sorry! You're clearly a great mum with great insight. Well done. I hope you're all ok.

Poor girl and poor you. Well done for talking to her about it. I'm very concerned that he teaches the guitar to other children as well as her. I am so sorry love, please contact the police and get some advice. You sound a brilliant mother. x

Eeeek! Well done, Mum, for picking up the signs and having the kind of relationship where your daughter could share this with you.

So and I quote " don't blame him for a twelve year olds behaviour unless and until you have something that is actually inappropriate ". A 12 year old is a child under the law and however mature or responsible she may be going to sit on an older male relatives lap in a scenario that made her parent feel uncomfortable is telling you as her parent something isn't right. The child is not at fault....crush or no crush. Wait for proof and it will be too late...several examples of what could be inappropriate/ grooming behaviour have been described and the whole situation needs to be tackled now. No one posts on Mumsnet about potential child sexual abuse without having serious concerns. You don't have to make accusations...just act to first protect your daughter and engaging another teacher for her music lessons would be a good first step...she isn't punished by losing her lessons and her uncle's reaction may give you a bit more info about what's going on. Frame it as progress after he has given her a start with her instrument and see how he reacts perhaps but it would introduce some physical and emotional space. Make sure your daughter knows she can come to you about anything without being worried about your reaction or feeling she may be getting someone into trouble. I'm sure you know the basics to safeguard a young person. Yes it will not be easy but better safe than sorry even if your daughter is not at risk. One thing that did come to mind with the comment about your daughters heritage- you don't say but are there any issues about this especially now she is reaching her teenage years. Any bullying or racism at school perhaps or feeling different. Has her uncle picked up on something worrying her and in a clumsy way is trying to boost her self esteem - or is it an attempt to get her with him and part of grooming behaviour? ( my apologies if this has already been discussed ...I've done my best to read the whole thread but...). Whatever try to get some support for yourself as this is such a burden whatever the truths are for parents and the whole family to cope with- keep strong!