Restaurant row who is at fault?

[Polishedshoesalways]

Out with friends in a restaurant last night - six of us in total. Two of my friends were light heatedly disagreeing about gender politics between them. They were not bothering anyone else.

Friend x suddenly shouts at them quite aggressively and loudly to ‘shut up’

Loud enough for the tables around us to stop and stare.

Would you think this is rude? She was not part of the conversation at the time.

The table sat in stunned silence after that. It’s now really awkward. She hasn’t apologised or acknowledged that shouting or shutting a conversation down like that isn’t cool. The friends in question seem offended.

What do you think? Do they have a point?
Are you okay with being told to shut up?

Well, she’s being a bitch. The eye roll at hurting other people - her friends?! Not worth being in contact with someone who feels entitled to be so harsh and nasty. Who gives a shit what she had to share - why does she get to be dominant?

It sounds like she's heading towards being 'in the right' and friendless.

She sent an eye ball emoji and said it all seems a bit of a drama over nothing and she had a lot to share that evening (!)

I suspected all along that she was less annoyed at the subject matter under discussion, and more annoyed that she wasn't getting the attention she wanted. I think you're all finally seeing her true colours.

But OP has confirmed:
Friend herself shares the same broad (GC) view and has joined in on the debate in the past
The GC discussion was "light hearted"
The friend group talks about a wide variety of conversations so presumably most of the meal had been spent talking about other things
The 2 friends weren't dominating the conversation
While they were talking about that, OP was having a "Lighter conversation" about holidays, with the 2 other friends. She said "we were chatting separately, not as a group."
So rude shutup!friend could have just joined in with that if she wanted a lighter conversation.

She doesn't get automatic override rights regarding what other people who aren't even talking to her discuss!

Presumably by shouting shut up so the whole table went quiet, and then starting her own topic of conversation, rude!friend also shut down OP and remaining 2 friends holiday conversation. I agree with others, given the most recent updates it sounds more like she can't stand being the centre of attention and letting anyone talking about anything she isn't expressly interested in.

I suppose the litmus test is next time you are all out together and she is talking about something that interests her, one of you yell 'shut up!' and start talking about something else half way through. If she shrugs and thinks fair enough, then she's still a bit rude, but at least she genuinely thinks that's an okay way to interact. If she gets offended then she's ill-mannered and a hypocrite.

My husband uses " debate" when he's blind drunk and starting an argument

Oh God. 'Authentically' - currently one of the most self-indulgent words in the English Language. It indicates that as long as you are being 'authentic', you can be as rude as you like and people will just have to accept it.

To be fair I'd probably tell them to shut up too lol its not exactly a catchup over dinner in a restaurant conversion

Not what you want to chat about on a night out but different friendship groups work in different ways.

It seems a normal conversation for the OP and her friends.

I would be majorly pissed off if someone spoke to me in this way.

And I’d ’authentically express myself’ by asking her who the fuck she thinks she’s taking to!

There are many ways to express how you feel to your friends, without being downright rude about it.

Even if you genuinely don’t think there’s anything wrong with something you’ve said, a decent friend would acknowledge that they’ve still upset their friends and at least apologise for causing any upset.

If she genuinely values her friendships, then she wouldn’t be so prepared to die on this hill.

Being ‘authentic’ doesn’t give you a free pass to speak to other people like shit. That’s my overriding feeling. Your feelings don’t trump other people’s! She seems to have gone down the rabbit hole of woo, and feels she can communicate anything as long as it’s how she is feeling at the time, without considering the impact on other people.

I might feel murderous on a Monday morning with the traffic and stress, it doesn’t mean I can go out and kill someone!!! I’m not on board with this buzzword at all. You can communicate your annoyance without resorting to aggression.

Sounds like she'd reached the end of her tether... and tbh "debating friends" sound like real bores. Maybe she'd had a bad day/month/year and was waiting for someone to ask her how she was rather than once again intellectualising about abstract subjects for the fun of it? Maybe the gender politics debate is very close to home? Who knows?... but it feels like if none of you know what made her flip, then that's the point... she feels like you should know, which is why she was snippy with you too. Rather than ending friendships, maybe you need to be a better friend and try to find out what's going on?

Having read through all your responses... another thought, if you're all in your 50s peri/menopause is going to be a reality and that can really mess with any neurodivergence she may have found easier to mask in the past. Also throw in diminishing hearing abilities... Speaking from experience... being in a noisy restaurant trying to have a conversation... she might have been really struggling

Repeatedly asked her yes, she is fine.

Maybe she was struggling to hear. It was oddly stressful in there as it was packed and the volume was high. Waiting staff were stretched. Maybe she did feel stressed by the environment but she could have said.

No matter what the reason she snapped so rudely, her refusal to apologise afterwards tells you everything you really need to know.

Exactly this

I'd be ringing her up or messaging her asking if everything is ok & explain you're all worried something else is going on with her as she's not usually so rude. Tell her how upset or uncomfortable she has made you & the others feel & ask her direct why she felt it was ok to shout at her friends to shut up. Close friends should be able to have awkward conversations & call each other out on bad behaviour. It could be she has a lot on & was just venting & you all got the brunt of it. No excuses for being so rude but asking her outright you'll find out the cause of her outburst. If you feel better all of you being involved in the convo so there's no 'she said/this/that' put a message in a group whatsapp or other group chat.

Doesn’t matter how loud or stressful the environment was. If that’s an excuse to be horribly rude to your friends, everyone would be telling each other to STFU. It’s not an excuse at all.

Quite. She can be as authentic as she wants but you don't have to be friends with her.

You can't say your two friends were not bothering anyone. They were clearly bothering your friend. Or she wouldn't have told them to shut up.

Who knows why she was bothered. It might be a particularly sensitive topic for her or she might have thought their outspoken views might be confused for hers, since she's sitting with them.

Personally I find it a bit rude when two people in a group of six get so caught up in themselves, they lose all awareness around them.

If you're talking religion or politics, which people can get very heated about (as you found out with friend's snappy response) - it's always wise to check you're not being unintentionally offensive to others in the party.

Equally there are better ways to explain to people their behaviour is becoming offensive/anti-social than to rudely tell them to shut up.

God it sounds like an awful night out, loud restaurant, political debates, stressed staff.

i think I might snap as well.

Peri-menopause? I stopped writing, indeed stopped telling myself stories in my head, a huge emptiness - I know that was the cause now, but other traumatic events were equally a trigger. I made myself write, not things I had wanted to produce, but plays for a local drama group. If I had not done that, it would have been blameworthy on me, my fault, not my hormones. Honestly, suggesting character traits and poor behaviour are the result of a hormonal state makes it appear that we do not have free will or self-control, but are entirely driven by our hormones (excusable in teenagers but not in adults). Not something I would wish to think. Rude is rude. It's not less rude because your hormones are in a swirl, and it still requires an apology and attempts at least not to be so crass next time.