Restaurant row who is at fault?

[Polishedshoesalways]

Out with friends in a restaurant last night - six of us in total. Two of my friends were light heatedly disagreeing about gender politics between them. They were not bothering anyone else.

Friend x suddenly shouts at them quite aggressively and loudly to ‘shut up’

Loud enough for the tables around us to stop and stare.

Would you think this is rude? She was not part of the conversation at the time.

The table sat in stunned silence after that. It’s now really awkward. She hasn’t apologised or acknowledged that shouting or shutting a conversation down like that isn’t cool. The friends in question seem offended.

What do you think? Do they have a point?
Are you okay with being told to shut up?

It is not ok. It would put me off going away for the weekend.

There were other conversations they could have joined this was totally unnecessary

Sounds like the SHUT UP was meant to stop a conversation and start one of their choice with the whole group paying attention.

Why did you all allow it? Probably because it was so rude everyone went in to freeze mode. I feel bad for your friends.

Will anyone point out it was rude?

What would you do if it happened again.

Im not sure that such divisive topics should be discussed in public where someone on a next table may be affected by your comments. So thats rude. Also telling someone to shut up is rude

Two out of the three people directly involved don't seem to see a problem. I think you are taking a lot of responsibility for others feelings here, when it is not down to you to make everyone feel ok. I agree with the pp who suggested some clear unambiguous feedback. As to whether it should come from you I am less sure. And I think postponing the trip is a little premature, how about 'in my opinion you are going to need to clear the air before any trip'.

We did freeze. Everyone did.
No one knew what to say. Friend x seemed unperturbed.

If it happened again I would call her out, and ask her not to be so rude.its almost like she has a green light to say anything to anyone.

They were talking about women’s rights, so not something we would ever need moderate for the benefit or otherwise of anyone listening in.

I’m going to guess friend may be neurodiverse.

Well, I know some people jump on these comments to say there's no connection but an ND friend of mine is very like this and to use the popular phrase doesn't have the filters and finds it hard to see any offense caused etc etc. She's blunt, outspoken and unapologetic so yes, many folks find her rude. Well, she is but there's usually a trigger and it's not for the sake of being nasty. I like her enough to forgive this and even find it funny sometimes. Friendships should be able to survive the occasional insult.
Let the dust settle and then see if you can all carry on but really is it that terrible? Call her out next time, she may enjoy/respect that.

If it was anti trans then that is something i wouldn't want to over hear while trying to enjoy my meal

It’s one of those things where it’s not the end of the world, but has left a sour taste. Four of us thought it was not okay. Two of us (Inc friend) were unbothered. Now it’s just weird. WhatsApp chat is tumbleweed. 😬

When you caught up with her did you actually tell her she was rude and needs to apologise? If she doesn't the group is unlikely to just get over it and all stay friends. I personally would be giving her some tough love so she doesn't feel ostracised when everyone else goes for a weekend away without her. I'd definitely be booking a trip without her if she didn't have the grave to apologise even if told that your friends were upset.

It would probably help you if you did really listen. You’d then realise the views are not anti-trans at all.

We are not anti anyone, but women’s rights matter to all of us, exactly.

I don’t think wanting single sex spaces and safe hospitals, prisons and other areas are contentious to anyone. It’s a bog standard human right everywhere in the world.

I'm frankly amazed that the two friends who were shouted at didn't tell her to fuck right off.

I certainly would if anyone shouted at me like that.

They are owed an apology, whether she likes it or not.

because yelling shut up at someone IS aggressive and rude rather than assertive or confident?
It's something a three year old would do rather than an adult.

There is literally nothing to suggest that the same people "dominate" the conversation, in fact op has literally said the opposite - that they were all talking and there were other conversations going on that friend could have joined in if she didn't want to talk about that topic. She doesn't get to choose what other people talk about!

A normal person wouldn't have though it was appropriate to tell them at all and would have just joined in with the other conversations.
If they were dominating the conversation the best way to change the subject would be a jokey "okay let's change the subject now.'
Then, if they didn't take the hint, 'assertive and confident' would be 'Guys, come on, you've spent the last half hour debating this, the rest of us would like to get a word in.'
"SHUT UP!" apropos of nothing is incredibly rude and completely inappropriate.

Why are people so keen to put their inaccurate two pennorth in that they don't bothering to read the thread to establish what actually happened, but skim read the first post and then jump in with a hypothetical scenario/rationale that they've completely made up, that not only isn't mentioned anywhere by the actual OP but actually contradicts what we have been told? Seriously what is the point?

Thank you for your posts everyone. It’s seems the two that were shouted at are reluctant to travel as things stand.
Friend x seems oblivious to her impact on others. The thread does reflect exactly the group opinion. Most seem to think it was rude, a handful seem to think it’s not.
Irs helped me to see I do think she has overstepped. Not massively. Hopefully she will come to see that am apology would be helpful!

Right, so you are still secretively whispering behind her back. Plans are being made already to exclude her. Nobody actually just having a conversation to resolve this.

The adult response would be to contact her and say "I need you to listen; however you felt at the time, shouting "shut up" at people is entirely unacceptable. You have really upset A and B, and they are very angry right now. I agree that your actions were not appropriate and think you should apologise."

Of course then, you really will have to stand by her if she apologises but A and B decide not to accept it. Are you able to do that?

No one is making plans or whispering behind her back. The trip is postponed because friend A & B are uncomfortable about booking it now.

I have already spoken to friend x she sees nothing wrong with what she has said. It was a very candid conversation.

If friend x can’t see that she has caused offence, despite me telling her otherwise there is not much I can do is there 🤷🏼‍♀️

Hopefully they can work it out.

You are whispering behind her back. Even this thread is. What are you on about?

This thread is whispering behind her back.

Whether or not bringing up neurodiversity means it can be crossed of in Mumsnet Bingo, it still seems the most likely reason. She’s blunt and direct, didn’t factor in the situation when she shouted. She just needed to stop the conversation so she shut it down efficiently, in her mind. Now she’s not budging because in her mind what she did was logical.
If it seems out of character, maybe it’s more in character than you think. She’s always been blunt anyway, but there will perhaps have been reasons to temper it in the past - masking, more awareness of needs of others in childcare years. she now older and alone. And it’s not impossible there could now be other issues alongside what she’s always been.

She said she felt the others ‘bang on’ too much about the subject ( they really don’t, but in any event it’s up to them! )

The topic has been everywhere recently, in news, social media etc. While I’m gender critical and will discuss GP with friends I’m honestly tired hearing it right now. It’s not ok to shout but I can understand her just being fed up and wanting a lighter conversation.

I am asking for advice - definitely not whispering 😂

You could be spot on with that. She has tipped over into not giving a damn, she has always been very outspoken, but not rude, and she has alluded to that before the outburst, that she has no tolerance now. Will take no prisoners kind of thing.

I didn’t think she would take this stance with her oldest mates though.

@Polishedshoesalways 'She has tipped over into not giving a damn'

This also happens around the menopause.😂I used to call it 'fewer &!$%s given with each passing year', & in talking to friends of the same age, every one of us felt it - though we all felt it as a sort of lightening of the spirit, a release. But as you say, we were still the same with our old friends. Mrs X seems to be using a scattergun approach to expressing her new freedom.

Have you told her why the time away has been postponed? It might make her realise that there are consequences which affect her, not just other members of the group, & that curtailing her behaviour would bring her benefits.

I have said to her the trip had been postponed because A and B were upset at being told to shut up at the weekend and we hoped to clear the air first.

She sent an eye ball emoji and said it all seems a bit of a drama over nothing and she had a lot to share that evening (!) which we still have no idea what that might be as she didn’t use the radio silence afterwards to tell us anything of significance! Our group is not usually like this, it all feels wearing tbh. I asked her if she is okay and she said fine?! 😮‍💨

Your friends are absolute melts