That The La Leche League have dangerously lost the plot?

[WandsOut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13372909/breastfeeding-charity-bullying-trans-women-row.html

www.msn.com/en-nz/entertainment/music/breastfeeding-charity-suspends-trustees-who-want-to-ban-trans-women-from-its-services/ar-AA1nZKUU

They have always been inclusive of biological women who identify as trans men and also non binary.

But allowing men who identify as women into their sessions whilst vulnerable women are learning how to breastfeed? Seriously? And what about women like myself from a faith that doesn't permit men to be in intimate spaces with women? What about women like myself who are survivors of domestic abuse who had to learn to breastfeed whilst making symptoms of PTSD.
I don't want biological males hijacking these services for women!!!! It makes me feel unsafe, traumatised and afraid for my daughters.

Why is LLL suddenly falling over themselves to accommodate men with fetishes for lactation?

I feel like I'm going crazy when I read what's happening to places like LLL and Girl Guides.

Why are people so dangerously naive now?

They don't seem to be queuing up for prostate exams either.

This!!

I also stand by the fact that random men aren't using LLL meetings to wonder in off the street and ogle at tits. People are deliberately blowing it out of proportion to make it as ridiculous as possible, as usual with trans issues on MN. I have literally never seen a trans woman in a changing room. The trans women I do know use the disabled or family because the don't feel safe in the men's and dont want to make women uncomfortable.

That's the problem though. They are the silent majority. As are two of the three TW I know. But the ones who make the most noise and demand access to women's facilities are the TRAs and precisely because they make so much noise they are the ones who get the ear of the government and institutions like LLL and rape crisis centres. Personally I think they are the ones who do the most harm to trans women.

And the question of what it means to feel and behave like a woman? Well every person with XX chromosomes has a different experience. We just ARE - regardless of hair, make up, clothes, careers choices. As a result of the chromosomes we have female sex characteristics but I don't go round every day thinking oh I have a uterus so I'm a woman. Again, I just am. I think it would be far more instructional to ask a trans woman what being a woman feels like. The TRAs seem to know better than we do.

I put a lot of effort into breast feeding my baby but still had to use bottles and formula due to low supply. Did that make my effort pointless?

Absolutely nothing in my post suggested that mixed or bottle feeding was pointless? That's really clutching at straws.

Mixed / bottle feeding if EBF isn't working out is doing parenting right.

Bottle feeding by choice is doing parenting right.

Taking huge amounts of hormones when you know you will never be able to adequately feed a child because you don't have a female body isn't doing parenting right,

I notice you're out now @BalletCat, but thankfully your posts have helped clarify my thinking all right!

People saying all trans women are men in dresses with perverted fetishes are just uninformed and nasty.

I never said that I said that I know many trans women through my old work and 2 of them I am still good friends with. I knew many others and most want to live a quiet life and I would not actually have any problem with them sharing the female toilets with myself.

however 3 of the trans women I would not want them anywhere near women’s spaces as 2 indeed had perverted fetishes which they did not cover up. They were and no doubt still are disguising individuals. They also used to attend hate groups against lesbians.

One of them actually loved going into shops, cafes etc dressed in full biker leathers with a full beard. They then waiting for a member of staff to refer to /her him as Sir- They then went mad and started quoting the equality act and threatened to report the member or staff or company for hate crimes and then reported said person to the manger or even went over their head to upper management. They got many vouchers out of it. When they felt like it they also tried their best to get the police involved. The reasoning was they wore pink nail polish and had long hair so the staff should have noticed that and not assumed!!!!!

and so you know what my two trans women friends agree with all the above. Yes it is not the majority but how are we supposed to tell.

I don't think so either. My purpose was just providing factual infomation. Young men of colour are the group most likely to be victims of violence. This should not be in dispute.

@BalletCat

I also stand by the fact that random men aren't using LLL meetings to wonder in off the street and ogle at tits.

Random men would not be allowed in, so nobody's talking about that. Partners of breastfeeding women apparently would, as would biological males who say they are women and want to breastfeed.
Neither group should be able to violate women's privacy.

People saying all trans women are men in dresses with perverted fetishes are just uninformed and nasty.

Well yes, if they are saying it's all or even most who are fetishists. Otoh, anyone who says there are none who fit this description is a liar. That's the problem, balletcat, there are some and there's no guarantee of being able to tell which ones they are. You keep evading this point. How are we to safeguard women and children when we can't tell? The option you are proposing is to forget about safeguarding. This is unacceptable to many people, not just bigots and haters. Why can't you understand that?

You keep evading this point. How are we to safeguard women and children when we can't tell? The option you are proposing is to forget about safeguarding. This is unacceptable to many people, not just bigots and haters. Why can't you understand that?

The poster totally understands this.

They just don't think safeguarding women and children is important. It's that simple.

Ugh. It's so depressing that so many women feel that way.

Devastating, I know

It's not a fact at all to compare men who want to play dresse up and be nonces to 'minorities'. Yes I have a phobia about men who want to sexually abuse children. And?

It's extremely strange that people get more hung up on perceived hurty words and mean names than the abuse of children.

This is what I mean about people's moral compasses being insane/non existent

@Barbie222 would you mind if I borrowed your words in conversation with other people?
You say in about fifty words what I'm always taking hundreds to try to express.

That's very kind @LilyBartsHatShop - I'm honoured! There's a bold fail in that post though - the top two lines of that post is the quote I was responding to, but I couldn't edit on my phone.

If you don't believe that a heterosexual man with a paraphilia would be interested in taking hormones and pursuing surgical transition then you might want to know about anatomical and physiological autogynaephilia:

• Physiologic autogynephilia: aroused by the normal body functions of women
• Anatomic autogynephilia: aroused by the idea of having a woman's body,

The above are two of the four main types of autogynaephilia (AGP):

• physiological,
• behavioural,
• anatomical
• transvestic fetishist

Here is some information that discusses elements of all of the above:

1. a blog written by a transsexual discussing AGP https://mirandayardley.com/en/a-history-of-autogynephilia/

2. An explanation of AGP https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-elephant-in-the-room

I wonder why not? 🤔

Well said @goldenshred . It's about the needs of children not the wants of narcissistic adults with low self worth who are so desperate for some validation that they centre themselves in a context of children being fed! you know, fed. To actually keep the baby alive. Life or death. Not all this literal violence bollocks!

I've still yet to see a single statistic of a single transwoman coming to actual physical harm, like actual death due to being not allowed in a women's space or horror of horrors, being misgendered. Also where are all these suicides of young people being told by their parents they are too young to transition or that boys can't be girls etc? Not. A. Single. One.

Thank you for this image. I have been trying to find it.

But strangely, it seems that those publishing it finally understood the significance of it and have deleted it. It is proof of how far society has had its boundaries lowered that any person thinks this is to be celebrated with a photo posed as this.

None of the studies of male people feeding secretions from their nipples have ever tested the substance for drug interaction from the drugs taken. Or even testosterone.

Ever. Why is that do you think?

Instead we see the studies into the ‘nutritional components’ and the process to induce. It is very dishonest in this way. We know that the main drug that induces lactation is very carefully and sparingly used for assisting mothers to breastfeed. If they can even get that drug, Domperidone, at all. It is known to cause heart issues and while short term it seems to have little impact on infants at the low and careful doses in short term, it is really not yet known whether it is fine long term.

And these studies ignore this.

And testosterone levels in the substance is not tested (not the full way through the study). We know absolutely that testosterone suppression is not reliable and levels will climb and fall over time. And we also know from female people taking testosterone that testosterone has serious side effects on foetuses. And we know from detransitioners that testosterone takes time to lower, one female transitioner reports that even four years after ceasing testosterone treatment, she has very high testosterone levels.

This fluid is not tested even adequately. And there are other drug interactions that form GAC treatments, not tested.

Here is a good explainer with a link to a previous explainer. Both are informative reading. The author is a medical doctor.

https://lascapigliata.com/2023/07/03/case-study-2-experiment-of-induced-lactation-in-a-trans-identifying-male-excerpt-from-born-in-the-right-body/

It seems we need a reminder on every x pages but especially for @BalletCat :

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

For those who are interested in reading more, here is a good place to start.

A transitioned male expert was the one who was putting up alerts about this, not the two people who carried out the treatment.

www.newscientist.com/article/2161151-transgender-woman-is-first-to-be-able-to-breastfeed-her-baby/#ixzz6f2Pil0Ik

However, the woman’s breastmilk has not been assessed yet, so we don’t know if it has the same mix of components as in milk from new gestational mothers. This means the practice cannot yet be recommended, says Madeline Deutsch at the University of California, San Francisco. She says she can see the potential benefits of breastfeeding, but that the long-term impact of this milk on the baby – including on subtle measures like IQ – is unknown.

Deutsch herself is a transgender woman with a six-month-old baby who is currently being breastfed by Deutsch’s wife, who was the gestational mother. “I am very sad not to be able to breastfeed her and at the same time I did not consider doing this for the above reasons,” she says.

This was February 2018. I have not seen anything to prove that any in-depth studies have been released since to counter this expert's opinion. And there has been plenty of other threads since this that where these studies would have been posted by activist posters.

So, there we have it. A transitioned male, Associate Professor, Family Community Medicine, is telling the world that this is not advisable until further research.

And this is key too:

After three months of treatment, this increased to 227 grams of breast milk per day. Once the baby was born, she was able to exclusively breastfeed the infant for six weeks – during which time a paediatrician confirmed the baby was growing and developing normally and healthily.

Although significant, this is below the average of around 500 grams that a baby consumes by the time the it is 5 days old. After six weeks, the woman supplemented her breastfeeding with formula.

So.... for how many weeks did this infant receive half the nutrition it needed?

This male only supplemented the feeding regime at SIX WEEKS!!!

And this was supposed to be monitored surely. It was an experiment. Why was this allowed!

From the New Scientist article.

This may need a content warning, so be warned this link show males talking about the amazing electric charge they get from infants feeding from their nipples amongst other things.

https://www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed

This is an illuminating read and shows insight into the motivations for these male people who seek to do this.

What is very clear, is that this is NEVER about the child. This is never child centred. This is all about the male person's demands being met.

But here is a question that you simply ignored on the other thread @BalletCat . Not sure why, maybe it was too hard to face to come up with an honest answer. Because it is hard to face the impact of what shaming women who are raising the alarm just because you, personally, don't like the language they use. Because despite your denials, shaming women raising the alarm is an act of silencing and who the fuck benefits when no alarms are being raised.... it most certainly is not the infants involved!

Would you like to tell us just how many infants should be subjected to this behaviour before women and LLL founders can discuss it without being shamed by others?

How many infants would you find acceptable before male people should again be excluded from female only breastfeeding sessions? 1? well, we already know that we have passed that number in the UK. 5? We know that there have been at least 9 in Queensland Australia alone. So, would 15 be ok for you before women don't have to be shamed for discussing it using any fucking language they feel is appropriate?

Do you have a number in mind balletcat?

Or will you now continue with the dismissive language that you use, such as "I would imagine it's is vanishingly rare for a trans woman to attempt breast feeding"?

The abortion fetish is actually more common than that.

We even had a male poster who declared that they were 'female' on MN tell us that they looked forward to the day that male people could do this. They, personally, hoped it was as soon as all the media outlets were saying that it was coming so that they, the poster, could experience abortion personally.

However, it has been said by people that have considered themselves leading transgender activists too. Grace Lavery, who wrote a book all about Grace's penis, has said this. And the book flopped too....

And it doesn't stop at abortion either. There are male people who have accessed stillborn mother support groups (for mothers specifically not for both parents)

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/princess-mom?s=r

How many women and children do you think are acceptable to be harmed before you, balletcat stop shaming women because you, personally, don't like the language they use?

DaisyTheLazy, I would imagine it's because it would highlight the truth that they were born with MALE anatomy and they don't want to hear that.

Wow that is interesting as I didn’t have it saved, I had just googled, having seen it before, and found it easily when I posted. It’s almost like some people are invested in covering up the idea that men trying to induce lactation is for their benefit only.