That The La Leche League have dangerously lost the plot?

[WandsOut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13372909/breastfeeding-charity-bullying-trans-women-row.html

www.msn.com/en-nz/entertainment/music/breastfeeding-charity-suspends-trustees-who-want-to-ban-trans-women-from-its-services/ar-AA1nZKUU

They have always been inclusive of biological women who identify as trans men and also non binary.

But allowing men who identify as women into their sessions whilst vulnerable women are learning how to breastfeed? Seriously? And what about women like myself from a faith that doesn't permit men to be in intimate spaces with women? What about women like myself who are survivors of domestic abuse who had to learn to breastfeed whilst making symptoms of PTSD.
I don't want biological males hijacking these services for women!!!! It makes me feel unsafe, traumatised and afraid for my daughters.

Why is LLL suddenly falling over themselves to accommodate men with fetishes for lactation?

I feel like I'm going crazy when I read what's happening to places like LLL and Girl Guides.

Why are people so dangerously naive now?

Can you "tell the difference easily"? Can you explain how?

@balletcat

To everyone taking the piss out of "act like a woman" as someone who is not a trans woman I clearly can't explain it effectively but that is the way it has been explained to me by all the trans women I have ever met. When they act like and are accepted as a female, they feel 'right'. When they act like a man to fit in they feel 'wrong'. It's not my experience so I can't explain it any better than that.
So when people tell you they 'act like a woman' but don't explain what that means you just accept it? Because that's not good enough for me. How do women act?

Obviously no one is saying that women who have been abused should be exposed to men in female spaces. Anyone saying that is being deliberately obtuse. That's exactly what some people have said/are saying. I was told (on here) to reframe my trauma which stems from CSA and accept TW in any place they want to be.

To everyone taking the piss out of "act like a woman" as someone who is not a trans woman I clearly can't explain it effectively but that is the way it has been explained to me by all the trans women I have ever met. When they act like and are accepted as a female, they feel 'right'.

It isn’t piss-taking, it is a genuine question- which no one EVER answers.

If we are to allow some males into women’s spaces because they ‘feel’ or ‘act’ like women, it is not at all unreasonable for women to ask what that actually means. Otherwise how will we be able to differentiate between men with lady-feels and men without?

Your TW friends have told you they feel like women and you’ve just accepted that without asking them what they mean? I can’t wrap my head around your lack of curiosity!

But I know you’ve left the thread anyway- which is not a surprise to anyone because it’s what people do whenever these questions are asked.

It would be direct sex discrimination to allow some men in but not others (bearing in mind that no human being can change sex so trans women are still men).

So either ALL men are allowed or none.

Two points that I've not seen mentioned: first is that even if a transwoman was trying to induce lactation, an LLL meeting, which is peer support plus expertise from a Leader (breastfeeding counsellor level), is not the place for them because it is aimed at supporting 'the normal course of breastfeeding', encouraging and supporting women and their babies to do what most of them can with the right help. More complex situations - of which this is arguably the most extreme example! - need one-to-one support, probably from an IBCLC which is the top-level lactation qualification (though some LLL Leaders are also IBCLCs), and possibly with input from endocrinologists etc.

Second, if a transwoman is attempting to feed the baby, what has happened to that baby's mother? We know that if a mother doesn't get good breastfeeding support in the early days to bring in her milk and ensure a good supply, then sometimes that can impact her entire breastfeeding experience. So if a transwoman partner is also trying to breastfeed, that could derail the mother's experience too, to the longer-term detriment of the baby and the mother, as we also know from research how mothers grieve the loss of breastfeeding experience if that's what they had wanted to do.

I'd be deeply suspicious of any 'transwoman' or man trying to access these spaces. And I would expect that any decent husband/partner would realise the need for this sort of service being single sex. It's obviously a fetish or perversion as most sane humans realise that men can't breastfeed, however much mascara they wear or 'discrimination' or 'transphobia' they cry.

Slightly off topic, but I learnt earlier today that's there's an international men's day next week. Don't they already have 365 of those days a year?

Its a worry for those babies too
No one knows the effects of the chemicals taken by men ( to transition and to try and make ‘milk’ ) on the babies.

They are potentially putting babies at risk

And for a man's fetish.

This should be unthinkable in 2024

Yes, it's incomprehensible to me, and yet it's happening.
Why, ffs why?

men have all the power still @Livinginaclock
and don’t give a toss

People seem to have lost their god damn minds.

its down to male entitlement

and a few woman that will go along with their entitlement under the umbrella of being inclusive 🙄

Oh I know, it fucking disgusts me.
I've lost so many friends over this and I just don't care, I absolutely will not stop supporting women and children.

Working our way towards this

Yes but I think there's more to it.

We seem to have lost any sense of a robust moral framework that we can apply to society.

So as soon these men presented themselves as 'most oppressed' and demanding 'respect' and for us all to 'be kind' - significant proportions of people fell over themselves to do that without thinking about a) the impact on the genuinely vulnerable and b) the motivations for these men's actions.

This thread has made me wonder: what is your opinion about/attitude towards Trans Men?

Seriously. This has got to be a wind up.

Presuming you mean biological women? Of the sex capable of breastfeeding. Regardless of how they identify, in a single sex space they belong with other women/females. If they need help to breastfeed, then these groups would be appropriate.

There are so many threads on this subject going on all the time I can’t believe you’ve never spotted them but this is about the LLL and breastfeeding in particular.

Try a MN search

I think it's terribly sad and an awful reflection on our society that women, particularly young and vulnerable ones, are attempting to opt out of it.

The pattern for trans identification among women is totally different to that among men. They are predominately very young. The nUmbers of middle age women suddenly deciding they are men are minuscule.

Aside from this, the dynamic is totally different for women anyway. Women in men's spaces are not endangering men, they are endangering themselves.

And obviously any biological woman who's given birth should be welcomed to a breastfeeding support group.

If a trans identifying woman wanted access to a testicular cancer support group, I'd consider that very odd and suspect behaviour.

Funnily enough, this doesn't seem to be something that happens.

I just don't believe that a man with a fetish would go to the length of literally transitioning which takes years, having top or bottom surgery, taking estrogen to alter their bodies and voices, having their own baby and then inducing lactation with a hormonal protocol.

That is exactly what a man with that fetish would do. Or they would short cut: no real transitioning necessary, just the drugs. And of course the vulnerable infant.

We know of some detransitioners, and at least one who hasn’t transitioned, who are disappointed to find that having a double mastectomy rules out being able to breastfeed.

As an example, the prominent UK trans man Freddie McConnell expressed sadness about being unable to provide any milk for his infant and described wishing his surgeon had maintained nipple placement so that the possibility of “chestfeeding” was retained.

(This is a supposedly intelligent person, a journalist.)

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/global-womens-health/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2023.1073053/full

There would be absolutely no need for a man with a fetish to have any kind of surgery to go to a breastfeeding group. Or hormones. Nothing.

If they wanted to 'lactate' they'd have ti take some drugs.

But what would be the 'reasonable' reason for a man joining a breastfeeding group. I'm all ears.