To think modern parenting has rendered us helpless?

[bustroubles]

I need to stress here I’m not advocating a return to smacking or anything like that. It’s horrible. Equally though I do sometimes wonder …

I suppose modern parenting hasn’t rendered you helpless if your child cares about sanctions but mine doesn’t. He’s three and I am mindful I don’t remember being three but I don’t think I was like this?

This morning he started throwing still damp clothes out of the drier. Told to stop over and over. Ignored me then ran off laughing. I’m just feeling helpless and a bit of a twat. I’ve no consequence he cares about, and time out isn’t recommended, smacking (which I’m positive my parents would have done to me in that instance) is illegal.

Maybe I have a particularly obstinate one but I don’t know … feeling a bit about it all. I know everyone will tell me what I did wrong but really I’m asking something deeper than that, if we’re just helpless now and reliant on our children’s good will?

3 year olds have always been difficult. But in the past parents sued consequences that actually worked like time out.
Just moving them away only works with biddable children. My children would have just seen that as a game and ran straight back.
You have to have consequences that are meaningful, otherwise they will ignore you.

I had all my toys put in bin bags and thrown out because my bedroom was untidy. Didn’t do me any harm (well apart from having to have therapy as an adult, the people pleasing, being scared of everything, fawning with people so I don’t get in trouble). No no didn’t do me any harm!!!

now obviously it wasn’t just the toy incident (I also one stamped my feet once as a two year old and got belted, my parents tell this story proudly as evidence of their excellent parenting as apparently I never did it again- I also never showed anger again as I was petrified).

so try these drastic things with some little kids and you will destroy them.

I think a short sharp bollocking is more useful than wittering on about all kinds of mummy doesn’t like that nonsense.

And there’s only so far you can take the “engineer situation so child is never asked to modify their behaviour” To use the chocolate in fridge analogy- how do you get to the point where you can keep chocolate in the fridge/expect washing not to be thrown on the floor if you never expect them to leave stuff alone?

Mine did all kinds of bizarre shit untill I lost the plot, dragged him to sofa and shouted to sit the fuck down.
Now he sits sulking or crying and does not repeat that for at least faw days until memory fades away (3y old).

Children need to learn that making someone angry does have consequences.
He is DS, he will be beaten up on the street if he winds wrong people up. Compared to that, a little shouting and forcing him to listen and 100% do not fuck with me will benefit him.
I know I will be torn on MN for this but I am mother and need to keep him alive.

We're a very sensory house and my son is also a laundry fiend, as well as a cup pourer, thrower, spinner etc.

We have had to adapt the house to accomodate him. Baby gates, cups at the table and preferably reusable takeaway cups with some sort of top on to reduce the spill, open spaces, accessible soft balls.

When he gets into trouble we have to redirect, and usually do it based on the sensory input he's getting from the original activity. So pouring: water table, bath, shower, washing his toys in the sink, whatever. Throwing, very vestibular and proprioceptive, so throwing and catching his soft ball toys or textured toys, taking laundry out: put them in this hamper to be hung up and help me put more in let's see who can do it fastest.

It's hard work. It doesn't always work. My son was very "well why should I do that when the thing I'm already doing is fun?" But with enough persistence of "you can't do that but you can do this" it works most of the time.

Also three is a horrible age. Newborn to almost 3 was a dream even though he has got his own challenges. 3 onwards and he's too independent for his own good and very self directed with no consistent motivator.

I do remember being 3, and being very similar to my son, and I did get the odd smack, and I will always feel like my childhood was an abusive one even though the adults now have grown and changed too.

I think all kids, every single one, would benefit from a sensory diet plan. Every one craves sensory input in one way or another and they're not an exact science but they help you know your child's body and what they love and then you're better equipped to redirecting.

Just commenting in solidarity.

I'm generally calm and measured with my DD3 so recently I think she's been determined to get a rise out of me (it seems just for a laugh) and holy shit shes doing great.

This week:
every toilet roll repeatedly unraveled.
Huge flowing designs smeared into my carpet with toothpaste
Ripping leaves off my cheese plants
Attempts to unravel curtains

And no discussion helps... bargaining short lived... sanctions useless... Aaaaaaaaahhhhh....I just have to pray its a phase right? Apparently she's an absolute angel in nursery and with babysitter so that gives me some reassurance 😬

Yeah mines fine at preschool! I’m sure it is intentional to be honest. And the fucking ARGUING!

Getting angry doesn’t work. I’m not saying it doesn’t work for any child ever but for DS it just massively inflames things, he shouts back at me. Ineffective. But then he doesn’t GAF for any consequences either!

My DS was the same and it very much was a phase. It took him a while but eventually he figured out there were consequences to being a little shit naughty. It's much easier now he's 6 and can be reasoned with! Just keep ploughing on and keep sticking to your guns op, it should work out OK in the end

Mine is the exact same..

Honestly, The arguments, negotiations and general drama I have getting her to wash her hands after using the bathroom is so extreme and a huge feature of life right now. Then Yesterday at nursery drop off her teacher said "you're just in time for snack, go and wash your hands" and DD skipped over to the sink and washed her hands like it was the nicest task on the planet.

I nearly FAINTED 😂

I try to be grateful that she's not a people pleaser and that she feels safe enough with me to explore boundaries 😬

Wait till they become teens then we will see if the modern gentle parenting worked.

People say there are no bad dogs only bad owners and the same goes for children. They need to be brought up right from the start that the parent is the one in charge, the parent makes the rules and needs to be respected there is plenty of time to be their friend once they become adults. Our always knew what boundaries there were and were taught how we expected them to behave and as a result we had well mannered and well behaved children who we could take anywhere.

In that instance I would have raised my voice to show I was angry, Told them it was naughty, brought them back and made them put the clothes back in the dryer. Asking a three year old nicely is pointless and they learn nothing!

This is why many people still spank, even though it’s not “the done thing” anymore.

All that would achieve is he would shout back at me. Don’t get me wrong - eager to find something that does work, but anger definitely doesn’t.

@Dragonboobs i think time out fell out of favour because it makes your affection and attention conditional on good behaviour, so it's considered a bit manipulative / like sulking

IMHO, even quite young children can understand actions and consequences eg if we tidy these toys together, then we'll have time to watch TV, but if I have to do it all myself, then we won't

TBH I would have approached that situation differently. He thinks it is a bit of a game - he takes the damp clothes out then you put them back in - great fun!

I would have given him a laundry basket and asked him to put the clothes in there, then feel the clothes and choose which ones still need drying and let him put them in the dryer. That is a game - but one which gets the desired result!

I don't think it is modern parenting I think some DC are just more difficult than others, particularly when they are 3. Yours does sound particularly challenging. I think the key is to be ruthless with boundaries, but pick your battles. Something that is dangerous to him or others can't be negotiable, but things like messing with the washing may not be worth making a big deal over.

Whrn my DD was going through that phase i would ask her to stop and put the clothes back, if she didn't she'd get a 5 second warning before naughty step/timeout. I would put her back on the step every time until she had calmed down (as usually she was then getting angry/upset), and then if that didn't work then it was up to her bedroom. Then once she had calmed down, we'd talk about it, and then go downstairs and tody the clothes away and carry on with our day.

Imo children need consequences, and ao many of my friends just take the easy way out with some ort of 'gentle parenting' and it still shows on their bids behaviours at ages 5/6/7

Aww come on. No you wouldn’t. They were all wet; they’d only just gone in. And by the time you’d got the laundry basket he’d have ran off giggling anyway. I don’t mind suggestions but let’s be realistic.

Have a read of How to Talk so Little Kids will Listen. It's got lots of strategies to try and is written in really accessible bite sized chunks. It gives you ways to shape behaviour without needing to resort to consequences.

And i would add that ultimately as your child grows you will be reliant on their good will. You can't 'make' a teenager do anything. So discipline methods which build connection rather than reduce it will sew the seeds for a connected relationship where they care about what you think as a teenager and beyond.

My eldest son is also not motivated by food, toys, etc. - all he really wants is people’s time, attention and affection. Very draining as a small child, but actually quite a nice character trait in some ways. Even as a tween now, he’s not at all materialistic and asks for nothing! He wasn’t as you describe your son - he actually is a obsessive rule follower and always has been - but I was wondering if your problem is essentially the same… your son can’t be bribed with snacks or toys or tv because what he wants is to engage you in a ‘game’. Any attention is good, even negative attention. He has a sibling who is also getting your attention and I assume you’re not playing with him/interacting with him when he starts pulling the washing out of the dryer, for example? I’m a teacher and I would say I am quite a strict parent but I have used a lot of the gentle parenting ideas that I do think work well. I liked the empathy/repeat their emotions back to them rather than getting angry approach - in this case, e.g. “It looks like you’re bored or you would like to do something with me as a game. It’s hard when I’m busy with [x], isn’t it. You like it when I play with you. But taking the clothes out of the dryer isn’t a game for mummy, it makes me sad because the clothes get dirty instead of getting dry. I would love to play a different game after I have done [x]. Can you help by putting the clothes back in the dryer while I do that and then you can choose a game.” You will need to make sure whatever you do doesn’t take long, especially to start with, so that he knows that you will play with him if he does the right thing. I know it’s really hard because you have stuff to do, but I think that he is perhaps just a bit more ‘high needs’ in terms of your interaction. Maybe there are ways you can involve him in what you’re doing, even if it’s just talking to him all the time while you do it? Obviously, I might also be completely wrong and it’s not that at all!

When DD was little, we put catches/bolts up high on all the doors so that we could shut them and she couldn't open them. That kept her out of the bathroom , kitchen and utility room.

She was a child who didn't care about consequences, nothing worked with her. It was hard. Now a teenager, she has been diagnosed with Dyslexia, Dyspraxia and awaiting an ADHD appointment, although with the waiting list she will probably be an adult by the time it arrives. She has no focus or concentration and has always been like it.

You do need to stick with consequences and follow throughs though and be consistent with everything you say/do. Make sure that you pick things that you can actually follow through on. (Don't throw favourite toys in the bin as that completely devastates them and they don't equate it to their behaviour).

One thing that child experts (brought in at primary school) told me was that you need to say their name first, so you say Susan! Don't do that, rather than Don't do that Susan, as they only start listening to you when they hear their name.

They also said to give clear sharp instructions and not ramble on , so Susan! Walk! Rather than Don't run off Susan .

You can buy safety catches for tumble dryers so that children can't open them. There is another safety issue that he could shut himself or another child in there, if he is opening the door

YANBU.
Children focus on the consequences of undesirable behaviour. If they are not phased by the consequences being issued, then we have no choice but to create consequences that will persuade the child to behave accordingly or be at the mercy of the child's need for approval from the parent.
Some children don't especially care for the parents approval. They don't give 2 hoots if their behaviour is making you sad/upset/angry.
Some children don't care if you remove their privileges.
Some children learn from your methods of discipline and use it on you.

There needs to be a clear hierarchy between parent and child and that is reinforced with boundaries that are effective, and which motivate the child to behave better alongside the compromising and sometimes placating or understanding the child.
Quite often, in the absence of effective boundaries, we are only left with the compromising, placating and understanding which isn't always effective.

Naughty step is horrific IMO, not for kids though - for parents. Who could be bothered with returning their kids to it over and over? The kids don't see the point in it - they're obviously not sat there thinking about what they've done wrong - it's just a battle and a waste of time all round IMO.

At 3 what works is a routine, kids love routine, lots of time spent with them reading/playing, consistently reminding them of the rules and going over them like a broken record until they sink in and time outdoors to burn off energy.

Smacking is not going to make a 3 year old better behaved, just as they already shout back at you then will just hit you back. They will also stop trusting and start resenting you. Smacking is for people who don't know how to parent and have lost all control.

He's throwing the clothes out the dryer because he wants your attention and of course he gets it. What I would do is say 'when you've put the clothes back in the dryer we can play a game of x'. If you know that's still not going to be incentive enough then I'd shut the door of the room with the dryer (with you and him in it) sit against the door and then say it. Plus be clear that neither of you is leaving the room or having any fun until the clothes are back in, then sit in silence with just the odd reminder - plus a reminder of what you'll do together when he's done it.

It takes time, effort and consistency though and THOSE are the things I think modern parenting is missing because everyone is constantly so busy. It's not smacking we're missing IMO, it's having the time to teach.