To be worrying about these children in my local park?

[TheDevilWearsPrimark]

They seem to be there every time I go, never with a parent or guardian, usually playing by the pond. I mostly see them at weekends or late afternoon, but they have been there on school days too.

They are really lovely children, very well spoken and like to play with my DC. I just can't help but worry about them. They are brothers and sisters, a 12 year old girl, and boys aged 9, 5 and 4. They have told me they live around the corner and are allowed to play in the park.

I have chatted to them lots as they like to help the DC with feeding the ducks, but they have often eaten the bread themselves. They are always very muddy and dressed in worn out, too small clothes. I've bought them all ice creams from the cafe before and shared picnics and they seem ravenous.

Am I just being suspicious, or is it possible they are being neglected? I hate to judge and consider myself very liberal but I think children of this age shouldn't be allowed free rein in a city park (we are in London)

846?
Gosh that sounds like loads to me.

At the moment I'm contemplating letting my very sensible nine year old girl walk to school on her own (five minutes, two roads, lots of others flooding in the same direction). The only reason I haven't so far is because no-one and I mean NO-ONE else does.

I don't like this 846 figure though. That is worrying.

Message withdrawn

Remember that was attempts
some studies show that although incidences of dubious things happening with strangers are not that rare (e.g. most of us probably remember a flasher from childhood? that would go towards today's crime stats)
that children mostly deal with these incidences well, can take appropriate steps to keep themselves safe in such situations (eg run home / shout and tell stranger to stop what they are doing / get a nearby adult to help) and are often not very / at all traumatised by them

(not meaning by this to belittle awful effects of abuse etc in serious cases or anything)

but reported incidences of some kind of abuse (ie. mostly attempted abuse as described above) by a stranger is often dealt with a lot better by children than abuse in the family, where their trust has been destroyed.

and in many cases an "attempted abduction" will have been something like "do you want to get in my car and see some puppies?" Child: "No." (goes home, tells mum, mum tells police, attempted abduction is recorded).

I think these figures might be interesting to you Doodle:

Looking at primary age school children (the group we are mostly discussing), going by Home Office data there are on average 2 children killed by strangers each year. The numbers remain the same on average between 1995 and 2005 - with no overall trend - and the figures have been at around the current level for decades.

Compare with figures for children being murdered by their parents or other members of their family - 7 or 8 a week

an example of a survey on public opinion - incidence of child murder in Scotland is very low and has shown no change in the last 20 years. Yet 76% of respondents thought incidence of such deaths had increased, with 38% believing the increase to be 'dramatic'.

can't point you to these figures online I am afraid, have taken from very good book called "No fear - growing up in a risk averse society"

Gosh this thread has raced ahead since I quickly posted before going to bed the other day!
I think the whole area about risk and risk perception is really interesting and really needs debating. The stuff about cars has reminded me - my DH who lectures in playwork had copies of some articles a while ago which were about the effects of removing 'street furniture' as opposed to adding in traffic calming measures. Apparently, in certain residential areas, rather than build speed bumps etc, councils have removed kerbs, pavements,road markings, bollards, railings and so on. Cars and pedestrians now share the same space - and apparently it's had a remarkable effect both in the community using the space for play, socialising, gardening etc and also has resulted in a dramatic reduction in accidents involving pedestrians and cars.
I find that quite counter-intuitive and very interesting!

Digressing slightly there...
If anyone's interested, I'm sure the articles were on line so could ask DH for links. It was several different areas in UK, I think.

don't see anything like it. lots of people send their children to the park in tatty clothes cos they will only wreck them or get them dirty anyway. again most children always seem to be ravenous even if they have only eaten half an hour before!! the only concern i would have would be the pond but if it is fenced off i wouldn't be too worried about it.

the one thing i would be concerned about would be the fact they are there during school time but could they be home schooled? or could it be that they had a holiday at a different time to other schools. the holidays always seem to be very staggered especially with private schools.

Laidbackinengland- I completely agree with your point about the responsibilty of the younger children. That's what would make me question this particular instance- if something went wrong- 12 is too young to be made responsible.

nappyadict- I was thinking homeschooling- or the dreaded...Steiner- s Steiner schools have very odd hours- the kids don't go full time for years- sometims 'til 10'ish they still have half days. The attitude of Steiner parents is very laizzez faire too- they think the children have guardian angels and if something bad happens it's karmic destiny. I'll probably get my head bitten off now for mentioning steiner

actually i am looking at a steiner school for ds. they have half days until 6 or 7 though, not 10.

nappy- the Steiner school where mine were still had half day on fridays until they were 11/12. Make sure you check!
They start at 7/8 yrs with one full day, and gradually add on the afternoons as they get older.
But each school may be different .

Have you looked at the Steiner threads?

Are you happy about the anthroposophy and preparing your child for reincarnation?

This is hijacking , but make sure you're fully aware of what sort of education you're getting into.

some good Steiner articles here

Steiner info

and here

Thedevil- have you seen the kids again?
Did you write a note?

I hope it worked

I live in a small village with my ds (profoundly deaf and learning difficulties) I am now starting to let him do more on his own, (he's 11) but i have to think of SO much! when he goes down the road to the park he cant go on the right hand pavement because it would mean walking out into the road to go into the park(no pavement at bottom) he has to go on the left then cross the road(safer imho) he has good road sense. He has a badge that he wears which says "Mummy knows where I am" and my numbers on the back, not because i dont think he can do it i know he can, but it would be well meaning people trying to bring him back to me and undermining his confidence. He has also been taught what to do in an emergency... he knows to go to my neighbour and she has numbers to phone etc.... Well done TDWP for being caring and thinking of these children.

Wow lottie- that's a thought provoking post- thanks.
I think you must be a really really lovely Mum- to think of all that.it must be a real boost for him.
Letting our kids go is one of the hardest thing we do isn't it? And sometimes I feel it's so much worse to NOT let them go, although I agonise when my ten yr old walks the dog alone etc etc.

Thanks northernrefugee. It is very hard isnt it, and i try not to let him see me peering out of the gate when he is a minute late! The village where i live is fabulous and they have all taken my ds under their wing! I wouldnt ever want to live anywhere else with him!

Yes- lol- I'm like that, peeping casually- very well practised!

But the best thing we can do for our kids is to teach them to cope without us I suppose....
That's my definition of bringing them up .. bringing them up not to need us.. a strange dichotomy...

An update.

I saw them on Saturday but they didn't approach us so I didn't want to approach them. Yesterday it snowed and settled so it seemed like the whole world and its brother were in the park and they came over and helped us make a wee snowman. They were better dressed for the weather than my DC so clearly not at all neglected!

I asked the elder girl if her mum might like to come and meet me and the DC for a coffee in the park cafe and she said 'my mum's really poorly, she can't play with us'

I had decided against the letter idea as I don't want to interfere or intrude. But my heart broke at this.

oh no, that's awful
I hope she meant just temporarily - there are a lot of viruses etc going around, so she could have just meant she was poorly on Saturday

oh dear poor you

you know they do seem to be getting along very well, whatever the situation is at home
I mean the scruffy clothes thing won't hurt them, and they are all out looking after one another in the park each day, not out robbing cars or whatever
and not looking ill or thin from what you have said, just normal children who get hungry at times?

I would think that would make them even more vulnerable tbh - if the Mother has an ongoing illness which is what it sounds like. Poor things.

Reassuring that they were wrapped up warm though. To me it sounds like they are under some kind of stress at home - which is why they are out so much of the time. Really really hard to know what to do..... I would probably offer some kind of help - but I am a bit full-on like that!

I used to live in London and there was no way I would have let my dc's out the door on their own. It's not only abductions, it's the traffic too. I read somewhere that a child younger than 8 cannot accurately judge how fast a moving car is going if they wanted to cross the road.

And anyway, even if the actual figures haven't changed since the 70's or whatever, does that matter? There is still a risk and if it's 1 in 2 million it would still be too much of a risk for me to take.
And an attempted abduction is frightening!! What if the child hadn't got away? I would have nightmares for the rest of my life if someone had tried to abduct me!

Just read your update about the mum. I guess in a few days or so, you could ask the children if their mother is feeling better now? That might lead to them telling you if she has a long term illness or not.

In any case by chatting about the mum and her health, that gives you a good opening in to finding out more about the family. As you know these children quite well, I think you could legitimately try and get them to open up about their home life over a few weeks. You never know, they may actually want to tell an adult and even ask for help, but have been too nervous to do so.

It's not a park in N16 is it? They sound like characters out of E. Nesbit - maybe they are the wouldbegoods! Hope something becomes clearer soon, good you are worrying about them