To be worrying about these children in my local park?

[TheDevilWearsPrimark]

They seem to be there every time I go, never with a parent or guardian, usually playing by the pond. I mostly see them at weekends or late afternoon, but they have been there on school days too.

They are really lovely children, very well spoken and like to play with my DC. I just can't help but worry about them. They are brothers and sisters, a 12 year old girl, and boys aged 9, 5 and 4. They have told me they live around the corner and are allowed to play in the park.

I have chatted to them lots as they like to help the DC with feeding the ducks, but they have often eaten the bread themselves. They are always very muddy and dressed in worn out, too small clothes. I've bought them all ice creams from the cafe before and shared picnics and they seem ravenous.

Am I just being suspicious, or is it possible they are being neglected? I hate to judge and consider myself very liberal but I think children of this age shouldn't be allowed free rein in a city park (we are in London)

At the park at the end of our road there are always loads of kids who have come without an adult - I would say the majority of the over-8 - year-olds are 'unacommpanied'. Many of them are polite and friendly and will say hello or ask questions about DD etc. We are in a seemingly 'safe' area - quiet back road on edge of small quiet town, lots of families living here, all kids play out in lane. But what's really safe??
I think, (based partly on several years of being reponsible for child protection in school), that it is not as simple as 'don't talk to / accept things from strangers because there is a risk they would harm a child' - we all know children are at much greater risk from adults who know them well, usually within family / friends, but also, it is about the individual child knowing what is OK and what is not - ie 'it's OK for a grown-up to ask me these sorts of questions but not...' or 'it's OK for a grownup in this situation to offer me food, but if they did it like this or said x then it wouldn't be ok'. And coping strategies - 'if someone did this then you do xxx'.Really hope that makes sense! And I think you can start teaching children from quite young to make these sorts of distinctions - we do quite a bit of work with even our youngest children at school on 'good and bad touching', for example. And the same goes for other risks, eg strange dogs, of course.
So I think it is a question of whether these particular children have developed the skills to assess different situations - I really don't think you can give children a blanket 'don't talk to strangers' message.
However, I do think there is an issue about the younger children as they'll obv need more supervision and 12 seems too young to have that responsibility.
Apart from looking after the little ones, sounds just like my childhood....I grew up roaming through fields...
Hope that doesn't all sound too vague and woolly..

I have an 8 year old who is incredible sensible and I wouldn't let her walk to school or play in a park on her own. Ok she's my eldest and maybe I'll get more relaxed by the time ds is 8, but 8 is still young. I do let her pop to the house across the road with a note or similar, but not to just wander about.

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I just would like to point our that if you called the NSPC they would never jump in and remove children from a home unless they children were in immediate serious danger.

I have spoken to the NSPC before and they explained that if I was to make a complaint about a childs safety they would first have a letter sent to the parents to inform them they would like to come to meet them for a chat, they would question the mother, if needed neighbours and the school to see if they can find any signs of abuse.
If there is abuse then they work with the mother, they would not take the children away unless their lives were in immediate danger.

So please never feel scared to report suspected child abuse, because if the mother of these children is depressed and so cant leave the house or has a drink problem or other then social services could help her.

Whatever is going on with this mother she should not be letting her children roam freely like that, she needs to be told. One meeting from social services could stop this and anything horrible happening to her kids.

It p5sses me off that people can behave like this, no 12 year old should be responsible for small children.

You should report it and if you are worried about it then email me the details and I will do it for you.

while there may well be a perceived higher risk of abduction your child is still more likely to be invovled in a car accident and be killed or seriously injured than be abducted!

Doodle - statistically, the risks from strangers have not increased.

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this is an interesting article
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article689316.ece

I still say there is a perceived increase as opposed to an actual increase

Good article.

And I agree. I do think the journalist has a point about the age of the parents playing a factor on their worries, concerns, fears....

My father has said to me that he cannot understand how people plan to have children into their 40s and 50s, because as a 60yr old now, he worries FAR more about my children than he ever did about us. He's too concerned they'll fall over/ off something/ get out of the garden by somehow working out the latch 5ft up the gate (my oldest is 3!) He therefore thinks he'd now make a much worse parent. He puts that down to his age. Interesting.
I hasten to add-- this is my father's musings, and I am in NO WAY suggesting people shouldn't have babies after the age of 39!!!!!!!!
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When I was about 10, my sister 8, we were in the local park, by ourselves, probably a 5min cycle ride from home. Some peculiar man came up to us with his bits hanging out of his trousers and muttered something I did not catch....(!) needless to say, he was trying to engage me in conversation. I called my sister over, told her we had to leave, and off we shot, faster than you could say 'flasher'... he was just a nutcase, who knows what he was after, but my sis and I had been taught to look out for strange people, behaviour. We vowed not to tell our mother (for fear she'd never let us out again!!), and carried on. Never saw him again, no big drama, it was fine. Okay, you'll all now say 'but it could have been worse..'
Maybe, but it wasn't. There were flashers out there 20 or more yrs ago, there are flashers out there now. But, as parents, we know our own children, we know if they are dangerously trusting of others, or whether they are sensible enough to be out by themselves. I have always been a cynical little so-and-so, and my mother recognised that, knew it was quite safe to leave us to fend for ourselves. Personal choices.

I think calculated risks go with parenting. We have to sometimes lay certain fears aside and give our children a little credit. They are brighter, and more street-smart than we might think.
IMO.

well yes we all THINK the risks have increased, that's the point
but our perception is bollocks, it has been totally skewed by the media and by moral panics
rates of children being abducted and killed by strangers are NO HIGHER than they have ever been
you can't muck around with figures like that - the police can't 'fluff' a child abduction case - there are one or two of these cases each YEAR which is the same as there has always been

I also think that there was more of a sense of community 20-30 years ago.

I spent whole days bimbling about on my own, with my siblings, and with my friends, but we knew more or less everyone who lived around where we lived.

If there was a problem, other parents, or neighbours could be relied upon to help out.
Not as many women worked full-time outside the home in those days, so there were more adults around just keeping an eye on things.

Often neighbours would pop outside with biscuits or a drink for us.

There were many people who we could go to if there was any trouble.

Also, because everyone knew who everyone else was, it was a deterrent against anti-social behaviour, as no-one wanted to be dragged home and reported as a nuisance to their parents!

People just don't know each other as well nowadays.

Then again, Bette, as others have noted, children were, and are, at far greater risk from those known to them. I haven't to my knowledge come across anyone who has been abused by a stranger, but I have several friends who suffered at the hands of an 'uncle'.

I think this truth, and particularly the even more terrible truth that abuse is most likely to come from within the family, which has caused this escalation of fear of abduction, stranger danger etc. We simply can't accept what the truth means in terms of the family, male sexuality, male power and how it is expressed in the very worst cases, etc.

TDWP - it is good of you to be concerned but I have to say that we would have been out playing at that age in our old clothes (always a bit small that's why they were old ) and came from a perfectly decent family. Maybe the mother just doesn't subscribe to the general, current hysteria climate, which prevents us from letting our dcs out to gain independence? Some 12 yr olds are perfectly capable of being responsible for younger siblings - I was at that age.

Admittedly we weren't in London but I'm sure we would have been allowed to do it there as well.

Ihave never told my chn not to accept food from, or not to talk to strangers. I have told them never to go anywhere with a stranger but have also told then that most people are okay, only a minority are dangerous.

Not that they have ever accepted food from strangers. Actually would probably give different and more stringent advice if they had more freedom to roam.

This is quite normal where I live too (East Anglia). This is just how I used to play as a chils in the seventies and is exactly the sort of thing the govermnent is now saying children don't do enough of i.e independent play outside. If my children go to play by the pond, they wear old clothes. They are also always hungry. Children who play out all day do get hungry.

I agree with you bette- I was bought up in small village where everyone knew everyone.
We now live in a small village and a lot of people know my DC's.
I am happy to let DS1 (7) go off on his bike with his friends, I give him a time to 'check in' at home and he does, to the minute.

Very interesting thread.

On the question of whether the 12 yr old is doing the right thing or not by accepting food from strangers - I tell my kids that if they get lost or whatever, they should look for a grown-up who has children with them ('someone who looks like a mummy or daddy or granny') and ask them to help. So if my kids were in this situation, they would probably evaluate you as a safe, OK person. Personally, I think 'don't take sweeties from strangers' is about as relevant to child safety as 'don't wander from the path in case there are wolves'.

As for judging my parenting by what my kids wear - you would have to assume that I am clearly a mad old bat with no colour sense who thinks that wellies with a grubby sundress and poncho is a Good Look. Whereas in fact I am the epitome of stylishness.

Zzette I agree. Was beginning to think I'd been a negligent parent by not instructing my chn to 'not take food from strangers' there!

Doodletoyou, what is your view based on? Child abductions/ murders by strangers are unchanged in number over the past 4 or so decades.

The stats are real Doodle - in fact I do believe it was on GMTV this morning as well (not that I ever watch it while in bed with a coffee...oh no )

I've been harping on about this for years and am so glad that someone else is now too .

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"Stats - I just don't trust them."

Only cos they disagree with your opinion. You'd trust them if it were opposite.

Kids are just more likely to meet flashers or worse in more peoples imagination.

Time for a Chris Morris moment, I think..