To think that first marriages are mostly a disaster.

[IneffableCuriosity]

Obviously not in every case.

Bear with me…

I have noticed a pattern emerging in friends of mine, colleagues, close friends, family members and old friends from uni who all seem to end up in terrible first marriages to deadbeat men(or women!) who do the bare minimum, partners who cheat, are physically or verbally abusive or partners who are generally mismatched and the relationship was doomed to fail.

The colleagues/friends who were originally in terrible relationships seem to go on to meet someone lovely who pulls their weight and the relationship is healthy, stable and loving. They are generally much older and more mature and have grown as people and learned from past mistakes.

I understand that this is not always the case. Some are lucky enough to have wonderful first marriages. Some can obviously go into yet another dreadful relationship after the first one.

AIBU in thinking it is common among (mainly women) to sleepwalk into a first marriage/long term relationship with DCs?

@Youdontevengohere

I can’t imagine that you would marry someone without any discussions about how they see the future in terms of children/careers etc.

You would hope so, yes. But the point is that there is often a disconnect between what men think they are getting from marriage and what women want from it.

Its relatively easy to find an old fashioned man who is looking for someone who will be the mother of his children and will stay at home to be his domestic helpmeet. These are ten a penny.

Finding a man with a progressive mindset about his wife having her own career and who is prepared to make some sacrifices himself to support her is a bit more difficult as anyone who reads Mumsnet regularly knows.

Lets be honest about this: the kind of man who at 18 or 19 is desperate to set up home and get his wife pregnant tends not to be the kind of man who will support her in training for a career and working her way through that. Again there are exceptions but as a general rule these will be people with a very traditional outlook.

Lets be honest about this: the kind of man who at 18 or 19 is desperate to set up home and get his wife pregnant tends not to be the kind of man who will support her in training for a career and working her way through that. Again there are exceptions but as a general rule these will be people with a very traditional outlook

Don’t you think that works both ways though? Any woman who wants to set up home and get pregnant at 18 is unlikely to be one who wants to go and get a career? As long as they’re both on the same page, it’s fine. Like I said, the main reason I split with my first long term partner is because I knew he wasn’t very progressive in his outlook and I was climbing the ladder of a corporate career. We weren’t on the same page, so it wouldn’t have worked. I have friends who married young and are still happy together, but they knew each other’s views on careers/child rearing etc before marriage and were on the same page. Some men have a traditional outlook, some women do too.

Well, OP, if it’s a “first” marriage, it’s not likely to have been a success, is it?
If someone got married once and is still happily married, it’s a success!

@Youdontevengohere

Don’t you think that works both ways though? Any woman who wants to set up home and get pregnant at 18 is unlikely to be one who wants to go and get a career? As long as they’re both on the same page, it’s fine.

Of course it does. But surely that’s the point? Someone upthread mentioned this. If you want a traditional family setup then getting married and having kids early makes more sense. The couple’s objectives are clear and aligned from the get go.

If you want to have two people balancing careers it’s more complex.

And at risk of being accused of being condescending or a snob again, the bare facts are that a couple where both parties have careers is more likely to be one where both are university graduates and have done things after school before having kids. That’s great if they both want the same things and map out a life path.

But what happens a lot is you have a mismatch of expectations where the man expects the woman to stop work after having children by default because that’s what his mum did.

That may or may not work for the woman but a university educated woman who is ambitious is likely to be more ambivalent about this than someone whose only ambition has ever been to be a mother. In these situations a bit more negotiation is involved. Not all marriages are equal in this respect and if you want to marry someone who is going to support your career you are likely to have to look a bit harder than just shacking up with someone you met at school.

None of my friends married particularly young. Mostly between the ages of 27-30. However, nearly all of us met out partners when we were at uni or just after, so between the ages of 19-22.

I literally know no old fashioned men looking for a stay at home wife. What century are you living in?

Despite us all meeting our husband whilst relatively young we all have careers and not a divorce between us.

A lot of these issues could obviously be solved by discussing expectations before marriage.
I actually knew 2 couples who both got together at school, both went off to their respective universities (stayed together), graduated, started careers then married a few years into their careers. So they’ve been together since 16ish but didn’t marry until mid to late 20s (still young by today’s standards). I don’t think being in a relationship prevents you from growing as a person. You just have to be on the same page. I also know a couple who were together at school, split when they went off to uni then reconnected in their late 20s and married. My point being that just because you met your partner at school, it doesn’t automatically follow that they’re not happy to support you in your ambitions and career. But obviously they will have had conversations about their plans and expectations.

I’m not arguing with you by the way @Thepeopleversuswork , I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I just think it’s slightly more nuanced.

@Youdontevengohere

I don’t think being in a relationship prevents you from growing as a person. You just have to be on the same page.

Again, in theory I completely agree. But how many 17 or 18 year olds know what they want to do with their life? What they want to do for a living, how many kids they want and where they want to live? I didn’t have a clue.

Yes there are some very focused people who know exactly what they want but they are in the minority. Surely buying yourself a bit of time to think about this before you commit your life to someone is a good idea?

I get it. It’s very nuanced.

An alternative reading might be that to sacrifice what appears to be an excellent relationship and life partner for the potential of 'self-discovery' seems short sighted?

What is self discovery though? By 35 I'd lived in 5 countries, visited many places, studied, and on top of work I was a qualified scuba and yoga instructor. I'd pretty much discovered myself. However, this didn't make me happy. At the end of the day I gave it all up to battle infertility and have my DC. I've lived a full and great life, but at the end of the day, stripped back, all I care about is my DH and my DC. Nothing else comes close.

The permanent bachelors are the smart ones because they are under no delusions about the legal ramifications of marriage.

Pretty much all divorced men are insecure mugs if they want to re trace their old steps and marry again.

I'm pretty sure that's not the definition of a mug, but if the relationship has failed, surely the smart thing to do is to move on?

I don’t think being in a relationship prevents you from growing as a person. You just have to be on the same page.

I agree and it”s certainly not a given that a couple who got together very young will eventually grow apart. But I do sometimes wonder whether men who marry young are more susceptible to the trading in for a younger model thing, having got together with their wife when she was at her peak physically and being unable to cope with her ageing.

They are talking rubbish, thats the point.

My marriage at age 31 lasted one year because exh was violent crazy man. I left.

Found a new partner and we have been together sixteen years but not married yet. I am hesitant because the divorce was a pain in the arse. We got married in uk but lived another country. I left that country to third country. We were to divorce amicably but after I did all the paperwork he didn't sign the last document. I moved to uk but divorced him in my home country finally.

I do wonder what the rush to put a ring on it is. Aside from having kids, visas or cultural expectations.
However one could also argue that divorce can happen no matter what age you marry, people can change, cheat etc.

Most people I know are still in their first marriage, including me.

I'm in my 50s. I only have one friend from university with a failed marriage, and that failed very early with no children. They have now been happily married for 20 years. Everyone else happily married or happily single. We think of failed marriages as something that our parents generation specialised in (pretty much all of us have divorced parents) - we avoided it, mostly by not getting married until our 30s.

On my husbands side of the family there are six adults (him and his brother's and their wives). I am the only one who went to university, the only one with a degree, or who did anything in the way of education after the age of 18.

Every one of us has a good career. All three couples have children. All three men have been happy to take on equal roles in financing their lives and the childcare, work in the house etc. One of my SILs absolutely despises cooking. So my BIL does all theirs. Even though (shock, horror!!) he earns more than her.

There are a lot more "progressive" men (as I think you put it in a different post) out there than you'd think. But maybe most of them are still on their "first" marriage, because being a decent partner to a woman they are compatible with, they aren't likely to need a second one.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos

There are a lot more "progressive" men (as I think you put it in a different post) out there than you'd think. But maybe most of them are still on their "first" marriage, because being a decent partner to a woman they are compatible with, they aren't likely to need a second one.

Thats encouraging to hear. If men are becoming more progressive, so much the better.

I have to say, though, that you only need to spend a day on here to figure out that many men’s expectations of their wives have not kept up with the wives’ aspirations.

You can't use MN threads as a dip test on the relations between the sexes. They are self selecting for misery, complaining and grumbling.

@Thepeopleversuswork

Mumsnet is very biased towards the "crap" men stories though. People don't tend to start threads along the lines of "I'm so happy I chose the husband I did because he is a decent human who allows me to be me". Because, why would they even think of it? They just potter along being happy with no need to start threads on MN, so you don't hear about those relationships.

It's like they say, the healthiest relationships have barely any sign on social media. Because there's nothing to prove.

The permanent bachelors are the smart ones because they are under no delusions about the legal ramifications of marriage.

@AlcoholSwab Why is marriage worse for men in 2024? Are you assuming that there’ll be negative financial implications for them if they divorce? Don’t most women work nowadays? Isn’t having children a choice nowadays?

The permanent bachelors are the smart ones because they are under no delusions about the legal ramifications of marriage.

That applies in the case of women increasingly. In fact even more. If a man gets financially cleaned out in a divorce chances are his wife will have earned it by looking after his kids and home and probably doing a job on top.

Unlikely to be the case if a man divorces a wealthy woman. A lot of women haven’t really woken up to this and sleepwalk into losing everything they have worked for because white dress/ring/expensive party etc

The ignorance on here is astounding.
I didnt 'shack up' with someone i met at school.

Im highly educated, have a v successful career, run a v v lucrative business, all while living very happily with a man i have loved nearly 40 years.
You should be so lucky.