To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

[beinghonestherenow]

And I can see why, although he’s only 3. I’m hoping to god he changes but it’s not looking hopeful.

He is really … unpleasant. I never hear him laugh unless it’s this horrible cackle (which goes right through me tbh) when he’s doing something he’s not supposed to.

The more annoyed or stern someone is with him the more he finds it funny.

He is aggressive and bites kicks and pushes, snatches toys, literally the second another child shows an interest in a toy he grabs it. I keep thinking this is getting better but then we’re back to square one.

I am worried about the impact it’s having on my marriage (I’m close to leaving tbh as I can’t cope) and our other child.

I’m in a low place with it all. It’s a struggle to get through the days. Sometimes I’m not too bad and I’m fine and everything’s okay: other times (like earlier tonight) it’s not - I’ve had hours of rudeness and defiance and house trashing and my mind says I can’t take it … I can’t do it any more. Of course I do but mentally I feel broken.

DH means well but it is challenging parenting with him. He isn’t around much and most of the parenting load falls on me.

Keep looking into things

I understand your saying he likely isn't ND, and that may well be the case, but not really caring about things as you describe - such as toys etc - laughing if naughty/not responding to normal parenting boundary making, laughing if someone is hurt (not saying he does that), struggling to build bonds with peers, struggling with imaginative play/turn taking/sharing, can all be signs of neuro-diversity.

So ND or not, there are sources available online with both tips and other parents in same boat on a lot of those issues and it could be something to explore. Many (most) children can display 'some' traits which are a struggle and some of them fit into ND categories. Whilst it doesn't mean they are ND and they may grow out of them etc, sometimes the resources are very useful

@beinghonestherenow
I hear you! We have the same boy.. I am scared to take him to softplay just lately his behaviour is just awful, unpleasant, pushing, smacking other children (and adults!) it's embarrassing. I feel as though he doesn't like other children near him, in his personal space. And he can't share, no matter how much I try to encourage it.
He also lashes out at us at home over the smallest of things. I can be building Lego with him one minute and he's happy, then the next minute I've put something in the wrong place and he loses his shit, knocks it over in temper, throws it, throws himself back, wails then will smack me. I've also learned if I shout it either makes him worse or makes him laugh sometimes! Makes me feel like crying!
I sometimes think he is ND. Especially as he's obsessed with numbers and letters too. Infact, at his 2yr check he was barely saying a word, HV referred to SLT. The appointment took just under a year to come through (by this time he was talking loads) however during the assessment the SL therapist noticed his behaviours and lacking in social skills and has arranged someone to assess him in his nursery setting, which is happening this Friday actually. So I am waiting to see if anything is picked up by them and I can be pointed in the right direction with how to handle his behaviour and encourage his social skills to improve.

Its a tough age op. The terrible 2's is a myth. He was much better at 2, seemed to get worse at 3 and lots of people tell me 4 isn't much better either so we got a couple years to hang in there yet 🥺🫣

I can relate OP. My just turned 4 yo is an extremely difficult child. I completely relate to the issues with having a child who has absolutely no desire to please, no respect for boundaries and who seemingly becomes a whole heap worse if dealt any traditional ‘punishment’, but equally can’t cope with talking about feelings/emotions. I recognise the laughing and running off and wriggling away you describe. My eldest has 2 modes. Wild and out of control (75%) or overwhelmed, negative and destructive (25%).

Im a little different to you. I’m almost certain my eldest is neurodivergent. I suspect he has ADHD, sensory processing issues and potentially autism. However, he is also very bright and, on the surface, socially quite able. School have picked up that he likely has a high IQ alongside the propensity for being disruptive but feel he will not meet diagnostic criteria currently. I am in agreement with them. We plan to revisit in a year. In the meantime we are saving incase we need to pursue the private diagnosis route. He will be the sort of child overstretched paeds services don’t take seriously until he completely falls apart at school.

I agree wholeheartedly with previous posters. DS responds best to parenting techniques recommended for neurodivergent children. Neither authoritarian parenting or gentle parenting work for him. I should temper that by saying ND focussed parenting generally doesn’t make his behaviour conform to ‘normal’ - it’s not a quick fix. But it makes us better parents, understand him more and stops us spiralling into shouting, shutting him in his room or shaming him. I recommend the Explosive Child, Superparenting for ADD and The Out of Sync Child.

Happy to be PMd if it helps.

@HAF1119 i don’t know if he is ND or not. I am not saying he is or he isn’t. What I am saying is that at the moment we wouldn’t get anywhere with a diagnosis. Pushing for ‘support from professionals’ would just mean that if - if - we needed it in future they’d be less likely to listen and I know that as I do know a little bit about it! It would be ‘oh it’s that Thomas Davies’ mum again, she’s been trying to get him diagnosed since he was three.’

I am looking into strategies but it is hard to find one that works. Ongoing struggle.

Until a child reaches aged 7 years, they have no understanding behind an apology. If a child is forced to apologise, all you teach the child is to be ashamed.
Another reaction to shame and embarrassment is nervous laughter.

Children learn best by modelling others including older siblings. If he sees you are not sharing your toys, he won't share his. What toys of yours do you play with that he's not allowed to use?

The aggression is possibly him standing up for himself in an emotionally undeveloped way. He's little and he needs a hug on every occasion.

Are you advocating for your little boy every time a strange child attempts to play with things he's already playing with? Or are you more worried about a stranger's point of view on the situation.

Your child is 3. Three years ago we were in lockdown and you would have had a newborn baby and all your access to groups would have been put on hold until after their first birthday. How did that effect your attachments and bond to your child?

Children are not born awful. They have awful things happen to them without support to manage.

We watched some videos recently of the kids when they were youngest. One caught the eldest just starting in a temper. He was trying to upend a bookcase. He broke and battered and threatened for quite a long time. He didn’t particularly struggle at school although he did do plenty of mean things. As a three year old he was mainly just knocking other kids over or walloping them (mostly prevented) if left to his own devices. I wasn’t ostracised as parents could see the effort I put in and that he just found some things tougher. Now he is an adult and
has had so many years of being so very bloody lovely it’s hard to remember the stormy days. He is the most affectionate, non demanding, kind man you could meet. You are catastrophising. You might need help to stop or vent in the form of some counselling.

@MyBrownEyedHandsomeBoy its interesting as i am not sure that does describe DS. He can be absolutely fine at soft play nine times and then the tenth time he’s not and I never know why. Today he kept trying to run off at the end of a group we had attended while I was trying to put my shoes on … nothing made any difference, just kept running to the door. He doesn’t get angry about things in the wrong place or anything, his anger is usually when a perfectly reasonable boundary has been enforced (he’s taken to shouting HEY HEY HEY - no idea where that’s come from.)

I’ll have a look at those books @VivaVivaa . Thanks and I may well PM you. I hate the fact this is taking such a toll on me. I really am very worried we’re going to have a poor relationship.

I probably am catastrophising but it’s so very hard as remember I can’t see the end to this story. I’m stuck in a very black chapter. You can see the happy ending so obviously feel I’m catastrophising!

@Saytheyhear he is not forced to apologise although I have started to nicely point out some social niceties around apologising when we bump into people even when it is by accident which I don’t think is unreasonable.

what toys of yours do you play with is this an attempt to be funny?

Are you advocating for your little boy every time a strange child attempts to play with things he's already playing with No, this is not what happens. DS will often fixate on something someone else has and drive another child away - when he has it he then abandons it and goes onto something else. This is IMO one of his more worrying character traits.

I'm speaking less about a diagnoses more about support tools online. You don't need a diagnoses to access them. You sometimes find more information looking up traits to do with autism than the traits alone. For example looking up 'dealing with autistic child laughing when told off' may provide a number of websites with tips and tools, as well as parental group chats where they have tried and tested different methods. You will also find information when looking it up without the 'autistic' word - and could try methods from both categories.

Even with a diagnosed child, sometimes tools online are a big 'support' as there isn't going to be someone offering weekly behavioural sessions, or masses of support and advise without pretty much going online and finding the same information as you could without the diagnoses

No absolutely and I’m sorry - I was just explaining I’m not saying he is not ND but equally I’m not saying he is. Neither would surprise me. I am just explaining that at the moment a diagnosis is a long way in the future. I’m happy to try anything but his young age does make some suggestions difficult.

Op I’m not sure why you think if you ask for help it’ll make it harder at a later date. You’re right that there isn’t much support for children like your son but each time you ask for help you’re building up evidence that will help the right professional to eventually support you. I had a very difficult child like yours, she was violent, destructive, didn’t listen, defiant and she eventually got diagnosed with autism, pda and adhd. Sometimes it felt like she hated me and deliberately did things to upset me and it was incredibly upsetting. I used to want to run away. Like your son she also didn’t appear to be autistic but that’s because they’re all different. My other autistic child is completely different and also didn’t match the preconceived ideas I had of what an autistic child looked like.

If you had your son put on an nhs waiting list for some kind of assessment it would give you a few years to observe him and look for possible neurodivergent traits or solutions to help him.

Your biggest concern will be if he starts to 'act out' like this in nursery/school settings - then it becomes a very big deal. And you will have to be your child's greatest advocate and ally and it sounds like you're not ready or prepared for that...yet...and who really is...I wasn't.

He's only 3 and is trying to let you know what's really bothering him but he doesn't know how to as he doesn't have many tools to hand.

No judgement from me but when you have a dc it's pretty much the same as "buyer beware".❤

OP my second DC was exactly like this - extremely difficult, destructive, rude, hurt my eldest DC (usually scratched their face badly) and would laugh and smile when told off. They were also really naughty at preschool and we had reached the point where preschool had started talking about the possibility of needing extra support at school once my DC moved up to reception. We kept persisting, enforced the boundaries constantly, although it felt like it would never end. Then, around their 4th birthday, they suddenly switched back to being a lovely child. Honestly, it was so bizarre, preschool couldn't believe the difference. I think 3 is just an extremely difficult age! Around 4 they seem to begin to develop some self control and awareness of their actions. Don't lose hope, it's probably just a (extremely painful) phase

Oh @beinghonestherenow, you sound like you are really doing your best. Three year olds are tough. I had counselling when mine was three! Turns out he is autistic and at 9 is joyful to be around. Whether your child has any additional needs or not, they do change and there is hope. Don’t be hard on yourself.

@stealthninjamum because if you keep going back and insisting on something you come across as a bit neurotic, a bit of a boy who cried wolf. I think in many ways school will be the ‘reveal’ - but that is a while off.

I really hope to god it’s just a horrible phase! They do happen I know but this one seems so hard as I feel like I’ve lost my child. I haven’t heard him just giggle at something funny and silly for ages, I haven’t enjoyed reading books with him or anything much really.

i honestly don’t know where you get that idea from. My daughter has had support from speech and language therapists, counsellors, teaching assistants, tutors, occupational therapists, our GP. No one has ever seen me as neurotic. People are always telling me I’m a good mother - even though I have lots of doubts!

And I do worry …

We live rurally so we have the choice of two or three primary schools but they’re all tiny. The biggest one has 90 kids and the other two have fifty and 25 respectively. Whichever one he attends, if he gets into confrontations with other kids it’s going to be a bit of a reputation he’ll struggle to shake off. He also has a sibling who may well struggle with this.

It is troubling me. I wish it wasn’t but it is.

I was going to say this.

At this age we used to refer to one of our kids as "the destroyer of worlds" as they just couldn't be contained ot disciplined. Didn't seem to care about anything and bevaiour was so bad that taking them anywhere was horrific. It almost broke me becuase of the stress levels caused and my DH had a breakdown. HV support was pretty much non existent. In the surface of it they seemed "normal", just a bit psychopathic because no attempt to correct behaviour would work.

I'm 99% sure mine is ND. On waiting lists for assessment still. Over time calmed down a lot and is now pretty much house trained which is such a huge leap forward, behaviour is now broadly passable/exuberant rather than unmanageable.

They're massively bright and has a hugely in-depth understanding of the world- I can now see that some of the destruction was them wanting to work out how things work- they've just got an amazing innate understanding/capacity to absorb science.

Have you looked at demand avoidance autism profiles? There are a lot of different ways that autism can be expressed.

Well they aren’t going to tell you you’re neurotic, are they! Of course they’ll be professional to your face as I would expect. But if I start demanding my DS to go on a waiting list for a diagnosis of autism now - I will be asked what nursery think, what about his two year check, and I say well ignore all that, MN think he has autism?

If his behaviour is as extreme as you've implied, it's also unlikely to do him any harm to have markers put down/feedback gathered before he starts school so teachers know that they may need to consider how to help him cope as he makes the transition.

I imagine nursery will be doing some transitions closer to the time. It is well over a year off.

I second this idea. It is an amazing book although at times you might feel as though you are giving in. Pick your battles was my mantra and now I have a delightful young adult who is articulate, strong willed and adorable but I did doubt we’d ever get there. You do need to protect the sibling though. Can they have regular time outside the house with friends, a parent or other family members to just be themselves? I didn’t do this enough as I was so weary at times and it’s actually my biggest regret. Also, don’t mix up control and discipline. The latter is fine; the former a recipe for disaster.
Clint to the fact that there will be light but in small steps.